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94 1.0L 3 Cyl Metro with a problem; I need a conformation on this
Topic Started: Apr 16 2009, 05:50 PM (3,608 Views)
Potter
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Col. Potter

Ok ive gone ahead and done some minor troubleshooting on my problem but i need some conformation.
This is a 1994 Geo Metro 1.OL 3 Cyl.

Lets start at the begining

Problem.
I was driveing home when all the sudden my engine acted like i turned the key off. I looked behind the car and it looked like a blue smoke screen. I thaught i had blown my engine at that point but i went to the side of the road and cranked it up and it seemed like it was fine other than the engine slightly missing. so thinking the plugs where bad i replaced them. the car is still missing. It is not burning oil (that i can see their isn't any smoke comming out of the tail pipe) but i have noticed that where the 3 way breather hose goes into the air filter housing their is oil every where, its even soaked into my air filter a little bit. and down below that the whole trottle body is soaked in oil.

My troubble shooting
I pulled the Check Engine light code and came up with.
Code 51- The EGR System Circut.

Now thru the years of workin on cars. a bad EGR valve can make a vehicle miss like mine is doing but can it make Oil shoot into the intake like that? Or is it something else. if you need to reach me somewhere else than here my e-mail is Black.cat.89@gmail.com

Thanks
Potter


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wikityler
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Some say...

Did you happen to be driving up a steep hill when this happened? Even If it doesn't fix the problem, you should clean out the PCV hose, and check if the PCV valve is blocked. Is there and excessive amount of oil in the valve cover?
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PushnFords


You should do a compression test and post the results...that would help diagnosis.
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Potter
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Col. Potter

wikityler
Apr 16 2009, 06:40 PM
Did you happen to be driving up a steep hill when this happened? Even If it doesn't fix the problem, you should clean out the PCV hose, and check if the PCV valve is blocked. Is there and excessive amount of oil in the valve cover?
Yes i was driveing up a hill when it happened... i would say it was a 7 or 8% grade hill... i dont know if their is or not... usaly when its running and i take the cap off of the valve cover i can see the cam truning and it looks like its being oiled properly... really dont know if its excesive but their seems to be a lot of it gooing back into the intake... like i said its enough to get my air filter dirty.

Also replying to the tech... i will get the compression readings asap... got to go get a compression guage first.
Edited by Potter, Apr 16 2009, 08:04 PM.
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Johnny Mullet
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Hi-Tech Redneck

Sounds like the partially clogged EGR passage caused excessive heat and in time, you burnt a valve. The port is probably totally plugged now. See this thread that will show a pic of the port.......
http://geometroforum.com/topic/1299263/

The compression test will reveal if you lost a valve.
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PushnFords


Potter
Apr 16 2009, 07:57 PM
Also replying to the tech... i will get the compression readings asap... got to go get a compression guage first.
FYI, some parts stores have loaner tool programs where you pay a deposit, use the tool, then they refund the $$ when you take the tool back. Might call around and save some money....
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

Quote:
 
Did you happen to be driving up a steep hill when this happened? Even If it doesn't fix the problem, you should clean out the PCV hose, and check if the PCV valve is blocked. Is there and excessive amount of oil in the valve cover?

My first thought was PCV also, but I have to ask how driving up a steep hill, like my driveway, would affect the PCV being clogged to where the oil would be sucked/pushed into the air cleaner? :hmm wikityler? Or it's unrelated and besides the clogged PCV and EGR passage we need to think of offering another solution like sun spots. :lol
Edited by Bad Bent, Apr 17 2009, 11:35 AM.
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Will
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Victory is mine!!!!

I agree with Johnny. It sounds like you just burned thru am exhaust valve. When I first got mine it had a burned exhaust valve on the #2 cyl. At the time I knew nothing of the EGR problems. I replaced it only to burn it again in a couple of months. The symptoms were like yours, and finally led to my rebuild. My problems were a burned exhaust valve, a cracked piston, and a plugged EGR system.
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wikityler
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Bad Bent
Apr 17 2009, 11:34 AM
Quote:
 
Did you happen to be driving up a steep hill when this happened? Even If it doesn't fix the problem, you should clean out the PCV hose, and check if the PCV valve is blocked. Is there and excessive amount of oil in the valve cover?

My first thought was PCV also, but I have to ask how driving up a steep hill, like my driveway, would affect the PCV being clogged to where the oil would be sucked/pushed into the air cleaner? :hmm wikityler? Or it's unrelated and besides the clogged PCV and EGR passage we need to think of offering another solution like sun spots. :lol
Since the PCV vent is on the back of the valve cover, if the head was overly full of oil for some reason (missing oil restricter? clogged drain holes?) the hill would cause the oil to be sucked into the PCV system, and thus the intake. Having said that, a bummed EGR does make more sense.

I suggest you start parking the car under a pyramid;)
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Woodie
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This is a common problem, so much so that it has a nickname, "Geo oil fart". The PCV system is weak, should really have a vent in the crankcase. The oil drain holes in the head gasket don't line up with the ones in the block and head, occluding the very passage that allows oil to drain back down and blowby gas to rise up into the valve cover area and be eliminated through the PCV system. The valve cover was redesigned in the early 90's, the newer, finned valve cover has a simple separator built into it as an attempt to reduce this problem. As the engine wears, the amount of blowby increases, aggravating the problem, but if you drive a brand new one hard enough, it will do it. Going up a hill not only encourages the oil flow going back toward the air filter, it also requires a larger throttle opening, increasing blowby and reducing PCV activity.

Replacing the PCV valve and cleaning out the hoses may help, an oil "catch can" in the hose going from the valve cover to the air cleaner will allow proper ventilation while completely removing the oil from the equation, but I'm willing to bet that a compression test will show worn rings.

The conditions that cause this "electing a new pope" smoke screen are also the exact conditions that are worst for the life of the exhaust valves. Operating a G10 at wide throttle openings and high rpms for long periods is not a good idea.


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Potter
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Col. Potter

Woodie
Apr 18 2009, 05:26 AM
This is a common problem, so much so that it has a nickname, "Geo oil fart". The PCV system is weak, should really have a vent in the crankcase. The oil drain holes in the head gasket don't line up with the ones in the block and head, occluding the very passage that allows oil to drain back down and blowby gas to rise up into the valve cover area and be eliminated through the PCV system. The valve cover was redesigned in the early 90's, the newer, finned valve cover has a simple separator built into it as an attempt to reduce this problem. As the engine wears, the amount of blowby increases, aggravating the problem, but if you drive a brand new one hard enough, it will do it. Going up a hill not only encourages the oil flow going back toward the air filter, it also requires a larger throttle opening, increasing blowby and reducing PCV activity.

Replacing the PCV valve and cleaning out the hoses may help, an oil "catch can" in the hose going from the valve cover to the air cleaner will allow proper ventilation while completely removing the oil from the equation, but I'm willing to bet that a compression test will show worn rings.

The conditions that cause this "electing a new pope" smoke screen are also the exact conditions that are worst for the life of the exhaust valves. Operating a G10 at wide throttle openings and high rpms for long periods is not a good idea.


a "geo oil fart"??? now i know what its called... i mean looking at the pcv system it looks like a steep hill would do it in and throw oil down the throttle body... essentaly makeing the metro Cough because your shoveing oil down her wind pipe where its not supposed to go... because like i said... i can crank it up right now and rev it too 5,000 rpm and it wont burn a bit of oil. no blue white or black smoke is comming out of the tail pipe..... so that solves my smoke screen problem.... now i will continue to go and get a compression guage........As soon as i can get a ride to Advance Auto.... Can you belive it them SOB's gave me the wrong size thermostat gasket :banghead . now i cant even move the car if i wanted too. :'(
and also. what do i need to use to clean my pcv and egr systems out with?????? i mean it aint like a VW. and you take the cap off and rev it and it clears the system out. is their a specal spray bomb that i got to get???

Also if some of you are wondering about the whole Audio nut thing... im an MECP (Mobil Electronics Certified Personel) individual... yall need any help with your mobile electronics hit me up. my specalty is audio. but i can do most anything thats non ECU related.
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2000Firefly1.3L
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let's see your stereo system then
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Potter
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Col. Potter

2000Firefly1.3L
Apr 18 2009, 06:00 PM
let's see your stereo system then
it is not finished... i was going to buy the MDF and go get my amp and 18's this weekend. then this happened and its kinda getting set aside... ill start a thread and show the system as is right now.
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wikityler
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Potter
Apr 18 2009, 01:55 PM
and also. what do i need to use to clean my pcv and egr systems out with?????? i mean it aint like a VW. and you take the cap off and rev it and it clears the system out. is their a specal spray bomb that i got to get???
Soap and hot water worked for me. Wash out the 3 way hose, and the air filter housing. Replace the pcv valve for $11. If the screws that hold the pcv valve in place are starting to ware out, replace them. If the heads strip out, they are a pain to extract.


PS: Ha ha! My theory is (tentatively) correct :D
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Potter
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Col. Potter

wikityler
Apr 18 2009, 07:54 PM
Potter
Apr 18 2009, 01:55 PM
and also. what do i need to use to clean my pcv and egr systems out with?????? i mean it aint like a VW. and you take the cap off and rev it and it clears the system out. is their a specal spray bomb that i got to get???
Soap and hot water worked for me. Wash out the 3 way hose, and the air filter housing. Replace the pcv valve for $11. If the screws that hold the pcv valve in place are starting to ware out, replace them. If the heads strip out, they are a pain to extract.


PS: Ha ha! My theory is (tentatively) correct :D
Well the "oil fart" is cleared up but now to the reason of MISSING i went to advanced... got my thermo gasket :rocker and a compression guage... we will break out the haynes manual :news fire it up and do some testing tomorrow. ill let you know the results... and if i do need to replace a valve... looks like im gonna be following Mullets thread on replaceing the valve. NOW i did the haynes EGR valve check and pushed on the diaphram and it is frozen in place. that must mean that i need to replace it? and if i do replace it dose it come with all the other stuff or will i have to clean that stuff out and hope for the best?
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