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| Won't start hot; 97 3 cyl 5 spd wont start when hot | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 29 2009, 08:34 AM (288 Views) | |
| ARTiFactor | Jun 29 2009, 08:34 AM Post #1 |
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Last winter the service engine light came on. It went out when I changed oil. This winter when light came on I waited till spring to change oil. Light still on after 5 mo. Last couple weeks car occasionally would not start when hot. Opening air cleaner solved problem. This week had to wait 20 min for engine to cool befor it would start. I discovered that putting gas in the TBI resulted in a start. I cleaned the EGR valve and the filter on the EGR but used a duct tape gasket till I can go buy one. Now car won't start cold. Still fires on a squirt of gas though. I am now going to spay contact cleaner on all sender unit connections. My wife wants my to buy this one but it is 100 mi away and nothing runs but my bicycle. Pictures here http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ctd/1241697219.html |
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| Johnny Mullet | Jun 29 2009, 08:43 AM Post #2 |
"Mullet of Ox"
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We need to know what the codes are that are stored in the system. Next time it starts, run it to a parts store and get a free scan. Make damn sure you get the 4 digit code (example, P0123), don't buy any parts, and reply back. If you cannot get it started, ask around and see who has a scanner and can help you or worst case scenario, have the car towed to get the scan. The tow would be cheaper than a shop diagnosis and we can diagnose your problem right here for free once we have the codes. Good luck! We are waiting for your response and then we can continue the diagnosis. |
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| ARTiFactor | Jun 29 2009, 08:46 AM Post #3 |
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I got so involved trying to get that photo to appear I forgot the important part. I had Tires Plus read the codes. They said it was: P1250: Manufacturing controlled fuel and air metering. Also: B1016: passenger deployment loop resistance low B1018: Loop short to ground B1019: Loop short to voltage B1038: Sensor closed or short to ground My dome light isn't working. Edited by ARTiFactor, Jun 29 2009, 08:53 AM.
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| Johnny Mullet | Jun 29 2009, 09:16 AM Post #4 |
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"Mullet of Ox"
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P1250 - EFE heater circuit Early Fuel Evaporation (EFE) heater provides a rapid source of heat to the air/fuel mixture when engine is cold. If engine is above idle and the PCM determines the engine is not at operating temp, the EFE or PTC heater relay will energize and supply voltage to the EFE heater on the throttle body. Check the wiring to the EFE and the relay and check the connectors and especially the yellow/red wire. The EFE heater is mounted between the intake and throttle body. Here is an image with the relay location..........  Those other codes are for the airbag system. Sounds like a problem with the passenger side bag or wiring. Don't mess with it unless the battery is disconnected. |
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| ARTiFactor | Jun 29 2009, 11:06 AM Post #5 |
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EFE heater Is the EFE heater "A"? It looks corroded and the wire colors are red and black. It doesn't seem like it is a removable connection. I can hear the fuel pump for a few seconds after I turn the key on. Edited by ARTiFactor, Jun 29 2009, 01:20 PM.
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| Johnny Mullet | Jun 29 2009, 02:19 PM Post #6 |
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"Mullet of Ox"
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"A" looks like it. Does unplugging it make any difference? |
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| Bad Bent | Jun 29 2009, 03:07 PM Post #7 |
Facetious Educated Donkey
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Welcome to the forum, ARTiFactor! Minneapolis? Bicycle? Take the bus!  The Wife has good taste. |
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| ARTiFactor | Jun 29 2009, 04:10 PM Post #8 |
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Thanks for the welcome, My wife is the one who got tired of my $400 100k + mi cars (mostly Toyotas) and went out and bought a brand new 1993 Geo Metro. Since then we've had a 95 and a 97 (used for $3000 ea)- all red hatchbacks. Most people think they are still the original 93. They keep asking "how many miles you have on that thing?" I decided to try charging up the battery - its been going in at 3A for an hour now. I disconnected the EFE heater and it did the typical run on what was squirted in, then dies. Reconnected - same thing. I am meeting a guy with a 2000 Chevy Metro 3cyl 5sp with AC tomorrow. He needs $2200. Hate to be so vulnerable but sure sucks not having wheels. I am for getting the cute convert. Its been listed for months - can't figure why nobody is taking it. |
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| Bad Bent | Jun 29 2009, 11:09 PM Post #9 |
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Facetious Educated Donkey
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Not buying the Minn. Vert? I went back a saw the $4000 price tag on the Vert. for one and I see rust on the top of the trans. and the rear engine mount. Best check for more body/frame rust, around the wheel wells, before buying. In your neighborhood that should be a serious consideration.  While you are charging the battery, might just clean the grounds for giggles. Especially the "h" EFE Heater Relay? I know that fuse box is difficult to get out....  and the throttle body ground, that's been know to cause problems. It's been a couple of years for me but I added 7mm ground wires (purple) and solved all my ground issues. A little is good, more is better.  |
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| ARTiFactor | Jun 30 2009, 11:18 AM Post #10 |
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After being bummed at my Metro not running for 2 days, I hoped a full battery would change the situation. It did. This morning the car started without a primer squirt. I let it run to get hot and went in to eat breakfast. When I came back out it was hot but had died. Would not start hot. I disconnected the EFE heater and it would not start. With a squirt it ran 2 sec. Reconnected EFE and with another squirt it ran 2 sec. Now I am going to wait for it to cool to see if it will start cold. I will also get to the bottom of the fuse box and check the ground connections. (ground is black in cars, right?) My wife says if we get another car she will take a day off and drive the 100+ miles to see that cool looking convertible. |
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| ARTiFactor | Jun 30 2009, 12:44 PM Post #11 |
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I got to the underside of the EFE relay and noticed a big white with black stripe wire and a big white wire - also a small yellow with red stripe (on the EFE heater connector the wires are white with black stripe and black with white stripe). The top of the relay box says PTP. I traced thes wires to the adjacent fuse box to a fuse that also said PTP. It was blown. Replaced it with a good 30A fuse and excitedly tried to start car. No start unless primed with a squirt- 2 sec only. checked fuse. It is still good. Put on the battery charger again and its taking a charge at 4A. I think I got a new cheap Walmart battery a couple years ago. |
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| Bad Bent | Jun 30 2009, 03:29 PM Post #12 |
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Facetious Educated Donkey
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So I'm wondering if it isn't the TPS or it's adjustment, (Click Here) and/or butterfly valve. The Wife's '96 does not have an Idle Speed Control Motor (ISCM), yours might. I had trouble because the Throttle Valve aka 'butterfly' Stop Screw was adjusted all the way out (ie closed) with no pedal pressure. Cable adj. hot w/3-5mm play. The '96 needs a .014 feeler gauge propping the butterfly open (1/?th throttle) or the ISCM. I speculate that for idle and 'no pedal' starting you need the butterfly open a fraction for air and the first squirt of fuel to get into the manifold. With the TPS saying it's "a little low on the bell curve." Does this help? Maybe not but it's something to look into before replacing an injector/EFE. Have you tried hooking up your timing light and aiming it at the TB intake to see if the injector is spraying evenly? 
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| Johnny Mullet | Jun 30 2009, 09:50 PM Post #13 |
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"Mullet of Ox"
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Disconnect the battery overnight and reset the codes. This may or may not have been the problem you have, but at least we figured that part out. |
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| ARTiFactor | Jul 2 2009, 01:45 PM Post #14 |
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I disconnected the battery overnight. This morning the car started without a squirt. I ran it till warm and turned it off. Tried to start it later and it ran. Pulled out of garage to make room for the 2000 Chevy Metro 5sp 3cyl with AC I bought yesterday (I called a guy on Craig's list and said if he would bring it to my house I would buy it - $2200). Car died and would not restart. Checked the EFE heater 30A fuse. It was blown. Going to buy more fuses and see if I can rent a code reader and maybe buy a new battery. I discovered that when the pos battery clamp was tightened to the max it still wasn't tight. I put a lead nipple over the post and now it is tight. While it was running I tried to see the cone of gas out of the injector - no luck but the car idled fine - real slow - with the flap closed tight, revved real nice when opened up. Edited by ARTiFactor, Jul 2 2009, 01:48 PM.
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| Bad Bent | Jul 2 2009, 06:15 PM Post #15 |
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Facetious Educated Donkey
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I found this post by wired on TS: "I say this not only because it's just one possibility, but because I've had a devil of a time with throttle body gaskets on my 2000 3cyl. The factory swapped the top and bottom gaskets when they assembled the engine. The bottom gasket is supposed to be part metal and asbestos so it can handle the heat from the EFE (early fuel evaporation) heater under the throttle body. If a simple paper gasket is used it won't last long due to the heat from the EFE during warmup. Paper gaskets come out charred after a few months, especially in cold climates. I suspect that a lot of problems on the late model engines are due to leaking throttle body gaskets that just haven't been detected yet. I discovered the leak when the engine set an EFE code. The heater had shorted and it blew a fuse since there was no gasket remaining to insulate it from the manifold. The car was also getting poor fuel mileage from the vacuum leak." |
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