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10 Degree Advanced Camshaft Pulley
Topic Started: Nov 4 2009, 09:55 AM (6,123 Views)
mwebb
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FOG

Cobb
Nov 13 2009, 10:18 AM
Thats what I am lead to believe Woodie. Most dizzyless cars have the timing constantly advanced a degree til it pings, then retards it 3 degrees. If more ping is hear it start to lean out. Thats how my tacoma did. Sure it was supercharged, but I also used preminum fuel.

When I was in shop class it was believed you can smooth the chamber, piston top and do a 3 way valve job to reduce hot spots so with more compression and timming you can reduce the chances of ping.
on systems that use Knock sensors ....
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mwebb
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mwebb
Nov 13 2009, 11:13 AM
..."I'm not agreeing to that at all, because it is simply wrong.
Advancing the ignition timing provides more power,

better fuel mileage,

lower emissions (except for NOx), reduced carbon deposits in the EGR and exhaust, reduced hesitation, and longer exhaust valve life. "....


ok
this is what i am looking for
prove that that statement is true in a stock g10 with a distributor .


with regard to fuel economy which is what i am chasing , i have test results which prove that my theory is correct and your theory is false
so
lets see your test results ....
i should add
i was only testing for fuel economy , nothing else
and
i do believe the fuel in NYS in my area may be of a different blend than in other locations
which may introduce another variable ...
but
in the interest of consistency i used the NYS blend of shell top tier fuel only while gathering the test results that i have
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Woodie
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mwebb
Nov 13 2009, 11:13 AM

this is what i am looking for
prove that that statement is true in a stock g10 with a distributor .


with regard to fuel economy which is what i am chasing , i have test results which prove that my theory is correct and your theory is false
so lets see your test results ....
Not sure what I can provide as far as "test results" other than 35 years of experience dicking around with about thirty different vehicles. This is not something I "discovered" about Metros, it's simply how the internal combustion engine works.

When my boss bought me an 89 XFI as a company car, it delivered about 48 mpg in daily driving but had a severe hesitation about it that drove me crazy. Dealer said it was fine, of course. At about twenty thousand miles, I couldn't stand it any more and just advanced the timing so it pinged a little on occasion. I did this based on my general knowledge of engines and past experience with many, many cars. It was like having a new engine, more power, no more hesitation, and mileage went up over 50 mpg. I later tried mid-grade fuel and more advance, mileage went up to 53, but after about five tanks I did the math and decided it wasn't worth the added cost. Went back to regular and rolled the distributor back a bit, mileage went back to 51-52. My last car with a distributor was totalled in January of 1998, so I don't have any more recent anecdotes.

This is the entire purpose of a knock sensor, every aspect of engine performance is better with more timing. After a century of working different schemes to try to match spark advance to rpm, throttle opening, temperature, etc, they finally came up with something that could just advance it until it hears ping (the only downside) and then back it off a tad, multiple times a second. That way timing advance can always be at the optimum setting (as much as possible).

Edited by Woodie, Nov 14 2009, 08:00 AM.
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iamgeo
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mwebb,
You keep mentioning shell top tier fuel.
Please explain what that is.
From what I have read the only difference in it is just more detergent.
The fuel itself is not any different.
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Coche Blanco
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Troll Certified

I think he means the highest octane shell you can buy. * i am not 100% certain
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3tech
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http://www.toptiergas.com/

Quote:
 
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics.
Contain no less than 48 mg/kg sulfur. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290?F.
Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.
Edited by 3tech, Nov 14 2009, 10:52 AM.
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iamgeo
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I had read all that. Not every state forces that ethanol crap in our fuel.
As I stated, Top Tier gas is just detergents added to the gas to help keep the engine clean.
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mwebb
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FOG


When my boss bought me an 89 XFI as a company car, it delivered about 48 mpg in daily driving but had a severe hesitation about it that drove me crazy. Dealer said it was fine, of course. At about twenty thousand miles, I couldn't stand it any more and just advanced the timing so it pinged a little on occasion. I did this based on my general knowledge of engines and past experience with many, many cars. It was like having a new engine, more power, no more hesitation, and mileage went up over 50 mpg. I later tried mid-grade fuel and more advance, mileage went up to 53, but after about five tanks I did the math and decided it wasn't worth the added cost. Went back to regular and rolled the distributor back a bit, mileage went back to 51-52. My last car with a distributor was totalled in January of 1998, so I don't have any more recent anecdotes.


your statement above leads me to believe that
the engine in your car had severe deposits on the piston tops , causing the many problems that are associated with that
but also increasing the compression in each cylinder because of the carbon buildup .

so what you describe , should have the results that you claim -
in fact it is one way i instruct those without test equipment to test to see if they do have carbon deposits on their piston tops when they have engines with knock sensors

this does not provide any proof that
using premium and fuel and advancing base ignition timing will increase fuel economy


so
lacking test results to disprove my statement
my statement stands
on stock G10 engines using premium fuel and advancing Base Ignition timing
DOES cause a DECREASE in fuel economy


with regard to top tier fuel.
many users including myself , find that using top tier fuel INCREASEs fuel economy over NON top tier fuel under the same conditions
and increase in fuel costs do not offset gains in fuel economy
so along with the detergents and other benefits
in the long run
it is more economical to use top tier fuel that any thing else

but i strongly suggest that
you
do not take my word for it , you can test it your self in your own car with your own real world conditions
just record fuel mileage with and without top tier fuel 87 octane of course
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3tech
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iamgeo
Nov 14 2009, 11:08 AM
I had read all that. Not every state forces that ethanol crap in our fuel.
As I stated, Top Tier gas is just detergents added to the gas to help keep the engine clean.
It has nothing to do with the state.
If you had read it, you'd know that it's part of the fuel standard.
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iamgeo
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Big League

Here in San Antonio and surrounding areas we do not have ethanol in our gas. And from what I read about the shell top tier gas, it just has even more detergents that the government specs. The addition of ethanol is not what top tier gas is about.
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iamgeo
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Top Tier Detergent Gasoline

TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is the premier standard for gasoline performance. Six of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.

These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That�s something both drivers and automakers want to avoid.
Shell top tier gas, click to go to site
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3tech
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Quote:
 
The addition of ethanol is not what top tier gas is about.


It clearly states that it is on the site, under standards, and requirements.
That is what I posted.

Read it.
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iamgeo
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Big League

I did. And my point still stands. Top Tier Gas is nothing but more additives. Meaning more detergents. Not all gas has ethanol. Therefor the Shell Top Tier Gas here in San Antonio and other places that do not have ethanol in the gas is nothing more than gas with more detergents than the Government specs call for. In places that have ethanol in the gas the same rule applies. Nothing but more detergents. All the Top Tier fuel is designed to do is help keep the engine clean.

Quote:
 
most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.
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3tech
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It's the government now? Apparently we are reading 2 different sites, because not only does it specify the composition of top tier fuel (I posted that for your convenience, but you don't want to see it), but it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the government.
I think you're confused.
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iamgeo
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You do know that the EPA is a Government entity?
Quote:
 
the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995

And again I tell you. Before I made my first post I had gone to the site and read it all.
Are you aware that ethanol is not added to all the fuel sold in the U.S.? What you quoted just states what the EPA mandates when ethanol IS added to fuel.

Let me correct myself.
I stated "What you quoted just states what the EPA mandates when ethanol IS added to fuel."
Actually BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi
state that The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

1. Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
2. Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
3. Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics.
4. Contain no less than 48 mg/kg sulfur. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
5. Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290�F.
6. Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.

Now, I still stand by my statements that top tier gas is just a formulation of detergents to help keep the engine clean.
Edited by iamgeo, Nov 14 2009, 10:25 PM.
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