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10 Degree Advanced Camshaft Pulley
Topic Started: Nov 4 2009, 09:55 AM (6,122 Views)
3tech
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Apparently reading comprehension is not your forte.

If it's top tier fuel, it has the ethanol, it's a significant part of the standard.

You really don't get this at all, so let me break it down, so maybe you understand.
This has nothing to do with the EPA. NOTHING

On the home page they say that the manufacturers developed this fuel BECAUSE THE EPA STANDARDS ARE NOT SUFFICIENT.
Quote:
 
Top Tier Detergent Gasoline

TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is the premier standard for gasoline performance. Six of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.

These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That�s something both drivers and automakers want to avoid.



Its the auto manufacturers, NOT the EPA. It has nothing to do with the EPA, or the government.

On the deposit control page, it describes how this fuel - developed by the manufacturers, NOT THE EPA, must uphold the following standards, in which a list of minimum, and maximum components are listed. This also has nothing to do with the EPA. I don't know where you get this stuff.

See what the ingredients are??
Quote:
 
Standards

1.1 Retail Gasoline Performance Standards. The deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline conforming to section 1 of this document shall be met at the retail level in all grades of gasoline sold by a fuel company in all marketing areas of a selected nation. In addition, conformance to the standards shall mean gasoline sold in the selected nation shall not contain metallic additives, including methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).

1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics.
Contain no less than 48 mg/kg sulfur. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290 F.


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iamgeo
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Big League

Well, I see we are really not understanding each other.
I do know that the EPA has their set of standards of detergents in the gasoline. I also know that the aforementioned auto mfg's raised the bar, they wanted MORE detergents added and called it Top Tier Gas. I think we can agree on that.
What we are not agreeing on is the addition of ethanol into the gas.
I also know that the Auto mfg's have their own standards with regards to the addition of ethanol into gas. That is what 1.3.1.2 Base Fuel is about.
And once again I state that not all fuel sold in the U.S. has ethanol added to the gas.
I would suspect that Top Tier Gas can be had without ethanol.
It's all about detergents.
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mwebb
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FOG

top tier fuel is not just detergents
there is a
"do not deviate from this recipe " list of things to be included in the fuel
it appears ethanol is on the list among other things.

i am not a fuel engineer
but i see what happens when ignorant consumers try to save a few bucks and buy F.R.E.D.s gas

it never works out for them
but it is good for me

understand that top tier fuel is the best of the best
use what you want , you still have the choice ,
having said that
i would try fuel blended without ethanol IF it were available to me .

in my limited experiences
i find
if people
understand the price of fuel system components AND the cost of TESTing them to prove that they are or are not causing a problem , most choose to go with the top tier fuel - some do not
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pancakeron
New Member
[ *  * ]
Sorry, I just can't help it! (read: stop myself!)

SUPRF1Y and MWEBB, DO GET IT!
And I Know everyone here IS reading the SAME info!!

or at least looking at the same words/letters/article, etc...

So... FWIW (all of my 2 cents)
Here's how i See it (too)...

Ref from: http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Deposit Control Standards

The standards developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline are described below.  This technical document describes the deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline at the retail level that minimizes deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers.  These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.

Standards:

1.1 bla bla bla
1.2 bla bla bla
1.3 bla bla bla
on down to standard 1.3.1.2

1.3.1.2 Base Fuel.   The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806.

...bla bla bla

The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:
1.Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


bla bla bla...

SO I Figure... It's like it states above... pretty clear.
and here are a couple of maybe more clarifications, thoughts, ideas, or
well, you know... Whatever!

There is no fed, state or any other gov't agency that mandates the sale of "Top Tier Gasoline" anywhere in this country(US of A).

ANY Fuel/Gasoline that meets the required standards as developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota), can be labeled and sold as
a "Top Tier Gasoline".

ALTHOUGH THE COST TO MAKE IT WOULD SUGGEST IT BE SOLD
AT A PRICE POINT ABOVE THE ALREADY HIGHEST "PREMIUM GRADE"
UNLEADED GASOLINE PRICE....
i suspect, but won't claim it as a fact that...

"Top Tier Gasoline" has no(?) relationship to it being considered or sold as
"Regular," "Super", "Premium", "Hi-Test", and/or etc Types of "Unleaded"
Fuel/Gasoline.
for example;
At your Shell Station, The Shell Premium Unleaded Gasoline
being sold at the pump, will not necessarily be Shell's "Top Tier Gasoline"...

UNLESS...
The Pump has a Label/Sticker Specifically Stating that
it is "Top Tier Gasoline".

NOTE:
The same rule (may?) applies to the "Regular, and
other grades of Unleaded Gas" as well!


WHAT I Don't Know;

How can I or you, really know, that it really is, as implied
and/or labeled, "Top Tier Gasoline" ?!! you know... the real stuff!!

Who's actually going to contest it?!
perhaps, maybe... Warren Buffet?

When his Bentley, unexpectedly fries,
...out on the highway??!

Bottom Line: IT'S NOT "TOP TIER GASOLINE" IF IT DOESN'T HAVE ETHANOL IN IT...

OK!(sorry) 'nuf said....

sometimes, a road to babylon can go on and on and on and onnn?!!?


Edited by pancakeron, Nov 15 2009, 08:12 AM.
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Woodie
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mwebb
Nov 14 2009, 12:06 PM

When my boss bought me an 89 XFI as a company car, it delivered about 48 mpg in daily driving but had a severe hesitation about it that drove me crazy. Dealer said it was fine, of course. At about twenty thousand miles, I couldn't stand it any more and just advanced the timing so it pinged a little on occasion. I did this based on my general knowledge of engines and past experience with many, many cars. It was like having a new engine, more power, no more hesitation, and mileage went up over 50 mpg. I later tried mid-grade fuel and more advance, mileage went up to 53, but after about five tanks I did the math and decided it wasn't worth the added cost. Went back to regular and rolled the distributor back a bit, mileage went back to 51-52. My last car with a distributor was totalled in January of 1998, so I don't have any more recent anecdotes.


your statement above leads me to believe that
the engine in your car had severe deposits on the piston tops , causing the many problems that are associated with that
but also increasing the compression in each cylinder because of the carbon buildup .
I'm flabbergasted that anyone could read what I wrote and conclude what you wrote. It simply defies all logic and reasoning. IT WAS A BRAND NEW CAR. Where did these horrible carbon deposits come from, and how did this car manage to go 207K miles before it was sent to the junkyard wrecked? And it acted in exactly the same way that every other car I've owned or been involved with has. Exactly the way that the science of an Otto Cycle engine demands. More timing equals more power and more efficiency, period. That's the way it works, period.

The fact that it doesn't on your one car should lead you on a quest to find out why your car doesn't behave like normal engines. The fact that you can't get it to ping no matter how much timing you throw at it is out of the ordinary and probably an indication of something wrong. Is this the same car you're referring to in another thread with the burned valve and clogged cat? If so, it's hardly an example on which to base any conclusion.

I'm talking about a lifetime of experience with probably forty cars hands on, and also the agreement of the automotive community. I gave one specific example because you asked and you instantly claim that my six month old car had something horribly wrong with it. You're claiming proof that I am wrong because your one car doesn't behave the way science demands?
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

To bad I can't get into this but I found some interesting pages on this gas thing. :type
ASTM; American Society for Testing and Materials
This ASTM D4814 (abstract) has been around since 1988.
"Top Tier" is not ASTM. It is not found on ASTM.com. It is a BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi term as far as I see from the web site; http://www.toptiergas.com/

"The Clean Air Act also requires the use of reformulated gasoline in certain areas in order to reduce emissions of toxic and ozone-forming compounds... (and) prohibits the sale of conventional gasoline (gasoline that has not been certified as reformulated) in the nine largest metropolitan areas with the most severe summer ozone levels."- ASTM Feature. TOP TIER 1.3.1.2 is Base Fuel "This specification (4814) does not address the emission characteristics of reformulated spark-ignition engine fuel. However, in addition to the legal requirements, reformulated spark-ignition engine fuel should meet the performance requirements as well."- ASTM.

1.3.1.2 Base Fuel is not sold in certain cities in the summer regardless of whether of not it is TOP TIER. It is reformulated and meats ASTM D 4814.

So, what's the thinking here... :hmm
If I want my Geo Metro to run on par with the BMWs and Audis I play with on the freeway then I use a TOP TIER gasoline. The TOP TIERs have the same higher standards. Techron is a fuel additive which acts as a detergent. As Shell puts it; "TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline helps keep engines cleaner than gasoline containing the minimum amount required by government regulation, and, thus, helps provide optimal fuel economy, performance, and reduced emissions." Shell, TOP TIER.

My friend put Shell in my Dirty White Van in 1988 and it ran like :shit .
I can buy cheaper gas from the private Maverick Convenience store with no Ethanol but get less gas mileage. Chevron is TOP TIER but has ethanol. :smackface Therefore we assume ethanol/no ethanol is legal in Idaho.
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Potter
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Col. Potter

:die
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Cobb
BANNED

I just watched an episode of thepower block where horse power dyno an engine. Funnything, after the first pull they advancedthe timing and got more hp and a few more tq. They did it til it pinged and got more than they started.

What do I know? I am on my second engine in 3 thousand miles.
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mwebb
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FOG

..."I'm talking about a lifetime of experience with probably forty cars hands on, and also the agreement of the automotive community. I gave one specific example because you asked and you instantly claim that my six month old car had something horribly wrong with it. You're claiming proof that I am wrong because your one car doesn't behave the way science demands? "....

sorry but
yes

the automotive community that i am a member of would dispute your claims
if you think that your car could not build up carbon deposits in 6 months of use
you are INcorrect

the scenarios i described are accurate .
....................................................................
having said that
My Cat converter has restriction to flow measured 7 psi of back pressure at 1826 rpm no load .

will that change things in my system ?
you betcha
will it affect the ECM' s thinking about where it should set CONTROLLED ignition timing to
you betcha
may that be the reason that my car will not ping ?
possibly as CONTROLLED ignition timing will / may not be advanced as much because MR ECM / PCM thinks the load is different that what it really is (higher than actual) due to MAP sensor correctly reporting what it measures.

to verify that SWAG
i will log some things at 65 mph before and after cat converter replacement
................................................................
but
still it is a fact
when i switched to premium top tier fuel and advanced the base ignition timing to 27 degrees BTDC and then retarded base ignition timing by 5 degrees per tankful
every tankful yielded worse fuel economy than

87 octane top tier fuel with base ignition timing at 8 degrees BTDC .
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metromad


Easy gents, lets keep in mind that sometimes cars have a personality all their own for whatever reason and results will vary. I don't mind discussion but lets keep it calm and cool. Just sayin'.
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starscream5000
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Got 70 MPG?

metromad
Nov 16 2009, 03:21 PM
Easy gents, lets keep in mind that sometimes cars have a personality all their own for whatever reason and results will vary. I don't mind discussion but lets keep it calm and cool. Just sayin'.
:gp

There was getting to be a little too much testosterone floating around in this thread... :(
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Potter
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Col. Potter

starscream5000
Nov 16 2009, 03:41 PM
metromad
Nov 16 2009, 03:21 PM
Easy gents, lets keep in mind that sometimes cars have a personality all their own for whatever reason and results will vary. I don't mind discussion but lets keep it calm and cool. Just sayin'.
:gp

There was getting to be a little too much testosterone floating around in this thread... :(
Exactly MetroMad... Sophia has been kinda funny being in the norm... like when i ran my compression test i got 210 195 and #3 was cooked at 150.. ive read and seen that alot of others where around 170 something... dont know if thats normal or not but what is funny is that after geopalooza i reset my tach. since i thaught i had it on another cyl setting i re programed it back to 3 cyl and ran it up aginst the rev limiter. and shure as :shit it bounces at 7,100 (and yes i have a picture upon request) idk.

But lets play nice, besides this is a diccusion forum not a bickering forum. :D

And if you wanna check your timeing so bad, advance auto has a timeing light for like $30, set your timeing take it out and run it, bring it back, advance it more till you dont since a change in power (or ping) then if you over advance it retard it back to where it was... and you will always have a use for your timeing light... i used it recently on my truck, moped, and gonna use it for the 3 wheelier and the metro again after the 3tech rebuild. :thumb

Myself and Schultz before Geopalooza advanced mine 8 deg with the light, no ping, more power, and about 3-4 more mpgs cruseing on the interstate... no gear all dizzy.

Thats why i name my cars... because they all have a difrent personality just like us. ^o)
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bogs
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Duct tape heals all wounds

Quote:
 
There was getting to be a little too much testosterone floating around in this thread...

Was that testosterone :dunno or wheat and barley :hein
In any case, put down that wrench and :beer
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starscream5000
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Got 70 MPG?

bogs
Nov 16 2009, 06:10 PM
Quote:
 
There was getting to be a little too much testosterone floating around in this thread...

Was that testosterone :dunno or wheat and barley :hein
In any case, put down that wrench and :beer
Both maybe B-)

Have a few Wheat Ales myself last night :rocker
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mwebb
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FOG


i do not drink alcohol , except on the holidays ...
about a 6 pack's worth in 365 days , this year
i am way behind
................................................
no intent to offend
a thousand apologies to any and all who may have been offended
------------------------
advanced to 8 degrees BTDC or an additional 8 degrees BTDC to 13 degrees BTDC ?

----------------------
..."
Myself and Schultz before Geopalooza
advanced mine 8 deg with the light,
no ping, more power, and about 3-4 more mpgs cruseing on the interstate... no gear all dizzy. "...
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