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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 4 2009, 09:55 AM (6,122 Views) | |
| 3tech | Nov 14 2009, 10:10 PM Post #61 |
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Apparently reading comprehension is not your forte. If it's top tier fuel, it has the ethanol, it's a significant part of the standard. You really don't get this at all, so let me break it down, so maybe you understand. This has nothing to do with the EPA. NOTHING On the home page they say that the manufacturers developed this fuel BECAUSE THE EPA STANDARDS ARE NOT SUFFICIENT.
Its the auto manufacturers, NOT the EPA. It has nothing to do with the EPA, or the government. On the deposit control page, it describes how this fuel - developed by the manufacturers, NOT THE EPA, must uphold the following standards, in which a list of minimum, and maximum components are listed. This also has nothing to do with the EPA. I don't know where you get this stuff. See what the ingredients are??
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| iamgeo | Nov 14 2009, 10:51 PM Post #62 |
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Big League
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Well, I see we are really not understanding each other. I do know that the EPA has their set of standards of detergents in the gasoline. I also know that the aforementioned auto mfg's raised the bar, they wanted MORE detergents added and called it Top Tier Gas. I think we can agree on that. What we are not agreeing on is the addition of ethanol into the gas. I also know that the Auto mfg's have their own standards with regards to the addition of ethanol into gas. That is what 1.3.1.2 Base Fuel is about. And once again I state that not all fuel sold in the U.S. has ethanol added to the gas. I would suspect that Top Tier Gas can be had without ethanol. It's all about detergents. |
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| mwebb | Nov 15 2009, 02:40 AM Post #63 |
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FOG
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top tier fuel is not just detergents there is a "do not deviate from this recipe " list of things to be included in the fuel it appears ethanol is on the list among other things. i am not a fuel engineer but i see what happens when ignorant consumers try to save a few bucks and buy F.R.E.D.s gas it never works out for them but it is good for me understand that top tier fuel is the best of the best use what you want , you still have the choice , having said that i would try fuel blended without ethanol IF it were available to me . in my limited experiences i find if people understand the price of fuel system components AND the cost of TESTing them to prove that they are or are not causing a problem , most choose to go with the top tier fuel - some do not |
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| pancakeron | Nov 15 2009, 07:46 AM Post #64 |
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New Member
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Sorry, I just can't help it! (read: stop myself!) SUPRF1Y and MWEBB, DO GET IT! And I Know everyone here IS reading the SAME info!! or at least looking at the same words/letters/article, etc... So... FWIW (all of my 2 cents) Here's how i See it (too)... Ref from: http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html Deposit Control Standards The standards developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline are described below. This technical document describes the deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline at the retail level that minimizes deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers. These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline. Standards: 1.1 bla bla bla 1.2 bla bla bla 1.3 bla bla bla on down to standard 1.3.1.2 1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. ...bla bla bla The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol: 1.Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent. bla bla bla... SO I Figure... It's like it states above... pretty clear. and here are a couple of maybe more clarifications, thoughts, ideas, or well, you know... Whatever! There is no fed, state or any other gov't agency that mandates the sale of "Top Tier Gasoline" anywhere in this country(US of A). ANY Fuel/Gasoline that meets the required standards as developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota), can be labeled and sold as a "Top Tier Gasoline". ALTHOUGH THE COST TO MAKE IT WOULD SUGGEST IT BE SOLD AT A PRICE POINT ABOVE THE ALREADY HIGHEST "PREMIUM GRADE" UNLEADED GASOLINE PRICE.... i suspect, but won't claim it as a fact that... "Top Tier Gasoline" has no(?) relationship to it being considered or sold as "Regular," "Super", "Premium", "Hi-Test", and/or etc Types of "Unleaded" Fuel/Gasoline. for example; At your Shell Station, The Shell Premium Unleaded Gasoline being sold at the pump, will not necessarily be Shell's "Top Tier Gasoline"... UNLESS... The Pump has a Label/Sticker Specifically Stating that it is "Top Tier Gasoline". NOTE: The same rule (may?) applies to the "Regular, and other grades of Unleaded Gas" as well! WHAT I Don't Know; How can I or you, really know, that it really is, as implied and/or labeled, "Top Tier Gasoline" ?!! you know... the real stuff!! Who's actually going to contest it?! perhaps, maybe... Warren Buffet? When his Bentley, unexpectedly fries, ...out on the highway??! Bottom Line: IT'S NOT "TOP TIER GASOLINE" IF IT DOESN'T HAVE ETHANOL IN IT... OK!(sorry) 'nuf said.... sometimes, a road to babylon can go on and on and on and onnn?!!? Edited by pancakeron, Nov 15 2009, 08:12 AM.
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| Woodie | Nov 15 2009, 09:36 AM Post #65 |
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I'm flabbergasted that anyone could read what I wrote and conclude what you wrote. It simply defies all logic and reasoning. IT WAS A BRAND NEW CAR. Where did these horrible carbon deposits come from, and how did this car manage to go 207K miles before it was sent to the junkyard wrecked? And it acted in exactly the same way that every other car I've owned or been involved with has. Exactly the way that the science of an Otto Cycle engine demands. More timing equals more power and more efficiency, period. That's the way it works, period. The fact that it doesn't on your one car should lead you on a quest to find out why your car doesn't behave like normal engines. The fact that you can't get it to ping no matter how much timing you throw at it is out of the ordinary and probably an indication of something wrong. Is this the same car you're referring to in another thread with the burned valve and clogged cat? If so, it's hardly an example on which to base any conclusion. I'm talking about a lifetime of experience with probably forty cars hands on, and also the agreement of the automotive community. I gave one specific example because you asked and you instantly claim that my six month old car had something horribly wrong with it. You're claiming proof that I am wrong because your one car doesn't behave the way science demands? |
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| Bad Bent | Nov 15 2009, 02:28 PM Post #66 |
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Facetious Educated Donkey
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To bad I can't get into this but I found some interesting pages on this gas thing. ASTM; American Society for Testing and Materials This ASTM D4814 (abstract) has been around since 1988. "Top Tier" is not ASTM. It is not found on ASTM.com. It is a BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi term as far as I see from the web site; http://www.toptiergas.com/ "The Clean Air Act also requires the use of reformulated gasoline in certain areas in order to reduce emissions of toxic and ozone-forming compounds... (and) prohibits the sale of conventional gasoline (gasoline that has not been certified as reformulated) in the nine largest metropolitan areas with the most severe summer ozone levels."- ASTM Feature. TOP TIER 1.3.1.2 is Base Fuel "This specification (4814) does not address the emission characteristics of reformulated spark-ignition engine fuel. However, in addition to the legal requirements, reformulated spark-ignition engine fuel should meet the performance requirements as well."- ASTM. 1.3.1.2 Base Fuel is not sold in certain cities in the summer regardless of whether of not it is TOP TIER. It is reformulated and meats ASTM D 4814. So, what's the thinking here... If I want my Geo Metro to run on par with the BMWs and Audis I play with on the freeway then I use a TOP TIER gasoline. The TOP TIERs have the same higher standards. Techron is a fuel additive which acts as a detergent. As Shell puts it; "TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline helps keep engines cleaner than gasoline containing the minimum amount required by government regulation, and, thus, helps provide optimal fuel economy, performance, and reduced emissions." Shell, TOP TIER. My friend put Shell in my Dirty White Van in 1988 and it ran like .I can buy cheaper gas from the private Maverick Convenience store with no Ethanol but get less gas mileage. Chevron is TOP TIER but has ethanol. Therefore we assume ethanol/no ethanol is legal in Idaho.
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| Potter | Nov 15 2009, 10:39 PM Post #67 |
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Col. Potter
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| Cobb | Nov 16 2009, 10:58 AM Post #68 |
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BANNED
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I just watched an episode of thepower block where horse power dyno an engine. Funnything, after the first pull they advancedthe timing and got more hp and a few more tq. They did it til it pinged and got more than they started. What do I know? I am on my second engine in 3 thousand miles. |
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| mwebb | Nov 16 2009, 02:18 PM Post #69 |
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FOG
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..."I'm talking about a lifetime of experience with probably forty cars hands on, and also the agreement of the automotive community. I gave one specific example because you asked and you instantly claim that my six month old car had something horribly wrong with it. You're claiming proof that I am wrong because your one car doesn't behave the way science demands? ".... sorry but yes the automotive community that i am a member of would dispute your claims if you think that your car could not build up carbon deposits in 6 months of use you are INcorrect the scenarios i described are accurate . .................................................................... having said that My Cat converter has restriction to flow measured 7 psi of back pressure at 1826 rpm no load . will that change things in my system ? you betcha will it affect the ECM' s thinking about where it should set CONTROLLED ignition timing to you betcha may that be the reason that my car will not ping ? possibly as CONTROLLED ignition timing will / may not be advanced as much because MR ECM / PCM thinks the load is different that what it really is (higher than actual) due to MAP sensor correctly reporting what it measures. to verify that SWAG i will log some things at 65 mph before and after cat converter replacement ................................................................ but still it is a fact when i switched to premium top tier fuel and advanced the base ignition timing to 27 degrees BTDC and then retarded base ignition timing by 5 degrees per tankful every tankful yielded worse fuel economy than 87 octane top tier fuel with base ignition timing at 8 degrees BTDC . |
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| metromad | Nov 16 2009, 03:21 PM Post #70 |
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Easy gents, lets keep in mind that sometimes cars have a personality all their own for whatever reason and results will vary. I don't mind discussion but lets keep it calm and cool. Just sayin'. |
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| starscream5000 | Nov 16 2009, 03:41 PM Post #71 |
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Got 70 MPG?
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There was getting to be a little too much testosterone floating around in this thread...
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| Potter | Nov 16 2009, 06:09 PM Post #72 |
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Col. Potter
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Exactly MetroMad... Sophia has been kinda funny being in the norm... like when i ran my compression test i got 210 195 and #3 was cooked at 150.. ive read and seen that alot of others where around 170 something... dont know if thats normal or not but what is funny is that after geopalooza i reset my tach. since i thaught i had it on another cyl setting i re programed it back to 3 cyl and ran it up aginst the rev limiter. and shure as it bounces at 7,100 (and yes i have a picture upon request) idk.But lets play nice, besides this is a diccusion forum not a bickering forum. And if you wanna check your timeing so bad, advance auto has a timeing light for like $30, set your timeing take it out and run it, bring it back, advance it more till you dont since a change in power (or ping) then if you over advance it retard it back to where it was... and you will always have a use for your timeing light... i used it recently on my truck, moped, and gonna use it for the 3 wheelier and the metro again after the 3tech rebuild. ![]() Myself and Schultz before Geopalooza advanced mine 8 deg with the light, no ping, more power, and about 3-4 more mpgs cruseing on the interstate... no gear all dizzy. Thats why i name my cars... because they all have a difrent personality just like us.
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| bogs | Nov 16 2009, 06:10 PM Post #73 |
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Duct tape heals all wounds
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Was that testosterone or wheat and barley In any case, put down that wrench and
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| starscream5000 | Nov 17 2009, 12:38 PM Post #74 |
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Got 70 MPG?
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Both maybe Have a few Wheat Ales myself last night
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| mwebb | Nov 17 2009, 02:21 PM Post #75 |
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FOG
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i do not drink alcohol , except on the holidays ... about a 6 pack's worth in 365 days , this year i am way behind ................................................ no intent to offend a thousand apologies to any and all who may have been offended ------------------------ advanced to 8 degrees BTDC or an additional 8 degrees BTDC to 13 degrees BTDC ? ---------------------- ..." Myself and Schultz before Geopalooza advanced mine 8 deg with the light, no ping, more power, and about 3-4 more mpgs cruseing on the interstate... no gear all dizzy. "... |
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Therefore we assume ethanol/no ethanol is legal in Idaho.


or wheat and barley

2:07 PM Jul 11