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Top Tier Gas; From the horses mouth
Topic Started: Nov 20 2009, 10:18 PM (6,962 Views)
iamgeo
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Big League

Recently I asked in the forums about Top Tier Gas.
I was lambasted for my belief that Top Tier Gas is nothing more than detergents being added to the fuel. Whether it contained ethanol or not.
Some people that replied got a bit nasty.
Well, I made several calls and sent an e-mail to Shell.
Below is the e-mail I sent.

Quote:
 
Top Tier Gas
...
From:
Robert Madsen <iamtechnogod@yahoo.com>
...
Add to Contacts
To: ShellCustomerCare@shell.com
Hello,
I have been to the Top Tier Gas website and did some reading. But I am still a bit confused.
Does all Top Tier Gas sold by Shell and others have ethanol? Or, Can Top Tier Gas be had without ethanol?
Is Shell Top Tier Gas available in and around San Antonio, Texas?
I am interested in using Top Tier Gas but I do not want it to contain ethanol.



And here is the answer.

Quote:
 
Communication from ShellCustomer Care SR# 1-3073477114
...
From:
"shellcustomercare@shell.com" <shellcustomercare@shell.com>
...
Add to Contacts
To: iamtechnogod@yahoo.com
Dear ROBERT MADSEN,

Thank you for taking the time to contact the Shell Customer Care Center.

This is in response to your inquiry.

All Shell gasoline (whether it has ethanol or not) contains the new Nitrogen Enriched cleaning system and is Top Tier certified.

All grades of Shell gasoline in the San Antonio area recently converted to a blend that contains 10% ethanol. The use of ethanol is being driven by EPA's Renewable Fuels Standard.

We thank you for your patronage. If you need further assistance please contact our Shell Solutions Center at 1-888-GO-Shell (1-888-467-4355).

Sincerely,
Shell Customer Care


Now, Like I have stated from the beginning. TTG is nothing more than detergents added to the gas to aid in the cleaning of and to keep the engine and fuel system clean. Whether it has ethanol or not.
The above e-mail from Shell proves my point.

I also stated in the forums that ethanol is not being added to the gas here in San Antonio. I stand corrected. I have found out from the calls I made to a few retailers that ethanol is now in Shell, Chevron, Texaco and even WalMart Gas (Murphy Gas). Damn it. No wonder my MPG is not as good as it had been.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

That's the "EPA's Renewable Fuels Standard" for you.
Like I said: "If I want my Geo Metro to run on par with the BMWs and Audis I play with on the freeway then I use a TOP TIER gasoline. The TOP TIERs have the same higher standards. Techron is a fuel additive which acts as a detergent. As Shell puts it; "TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline helps keep engines cleaner than gasoline containing the minimum amount required by government regulation, and, thus, helps provide optimal fuel economy, performance, and reduced emissions."- Shell." Click.

"Top Tier" is not ASTM. It is not found on ASTM.com. It is a BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi term as far as I see from the web site"- Moi. Wouldn't be surprised if it's a Trademark now. Own a pair of "Vise grips?" :lol

"No wonder my MPG is not as good as it had been."
bogs: "Well, winter itself will decrease your mileage, although I'm sure you all know that already. "
I found this link: Air Density Calculator. and briefly playing with I calculate that for every 10 Deg. F of temperature drop air density increases approximately 2%. It is consistent so a drop from 80 to 50 Deg. F would be a 6% increase in air density.
It's 28 Deg. out now, 70 two months ago. I've seen a 8% increase in density since I last wore an Hawaiian shirt w/o a jacket. :smackface So, yes, my car is using more fuel to push through denser air. :'(
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Metro Fanatic
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Thanks for sharing what shell told you. Interesting.
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bogs
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Duct tape heals all wounds

BB, that was interesting about air density changing. So as well as the longer idle / start up adding that into the calculation makes sense :)
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mwebb
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FOG

it has been INcorrectly claimed that
the only difference in top tier fuel to the NON top tier fuel

is "the detergent "
apparently operating under the INcorrect assumption that this is insignificant ....

it is not

there is also a do not deviate from recipe of additional specifications and components that MUST be present in top tier fuel that need not be present in
F.R.E.D.'s gas

so using ALL of the facts .
make your own choice
use what you want
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iamgeo
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Big League

The EPA sets standards for gas that is used here in the USA. Therefor, the base gas that is used in TTG is the same base gas that everyone gets. The EPA also sets a standard for detergents to be added to the base gas. In order for it to be certified as TTG more detergents are added to the gas that are above and beyond what the EPA calls for.

Edit:
TTG is suggested by the aforementioned Auto Mfg to keep the engine and fuel system cleaner than what can be accomplished by the EPA standards. A cleaner engine and fuel system will result in better MPG.

Edited by iamgeo, Nov 21 2009, 01:42 PM.
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3tech
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iamgeo
Nov 20 2009, 10:18 PM
Recently I asked in the forums about Top Tier Gas.
I was lambasted for my belief that Top Tier Gas is nothing more than detergents being added to the fuel. Whether it contained ethanol or not.

Actually, you were lambasted for saying

Quote:
 
And from what I read about the shell top tier gas, it just has even more detergents that the government specs. The addition of ethanol is not what top tier gas is about.

And

Quote:
 
I would suspect that Top Tier Gas can be had without ethanol.
It's all about detergents
.


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iamgeo
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Big League

And I proved my point.
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3tech
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That you can't admit when you're wrong.



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iamgeo
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Big League

I was not wrong. TTG does NOT have to have ethanol it. TTG is about the additives, i.e. the detergents added to the gas. In order to be TTG it has to have a specified amount of detergents in it.
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Coche Blanco
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Troll Certified

Just stop, those of you who know you are right good job. Those of you that "know" you are right, good job.

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iamgeo
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Big League

This from TEXACO WEBSITE

Quote:
 
What is TOP TIER Gasoline designation?
In 2004, BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota established the TOP TIER program, which established criteria for detergency levels in Gasoline higher than those currently set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). This standard established requirements for the design of Gasolines that keep engine parts cleaner than lower-quality Gasolines by providing reduced fuel-related deposits, resulting in better engine performance. Texaco and Chevron Gasolines with Techron were the first designated as meeting the tough TOP TIER specifications in the U.S., and they didn't even have to adjust their formulae—they were already that good!

Back to top

All gasolines in the U.S. are required to contain an additive. What makes gasolines with Techron different?
Federal regulations require that all gasolines in the U.S. contain a deposit control (DC) additive. The lowest-additive concentration necessary to pass all the EPA required tests is called the LAC level. Many companies use the LAC level in their gasolines. As a result, some gasolines provide better deposit control performance than others because these companies use DC additives that are more effective, have fewer side effects, and/or because they add them at higher concentrations.


From Phillips66
Quote:
 
Why is Quality PROclean Gasoline Hard Working Gas™?

Quality PROclean Gasolines are recognized as TOP TIER. To meet this standard, a gasoline must contain higher levels of detergent additives that prevent deposits and help ensure peak engine performance. We're proud to say Quality PROclean Gasolines meet the new TOP TIER requirements.
How do Quality PROclean Gasolines work hard for my car?
Using Quality PROclean Gasolines will help maximize your car's performance by:

* Cleaning engine fuel injectors and intake valves
* Reducing vehicle emissions and pollution
* Improving power and accelaration
* Above all helping maximize your car's mileage

How does a detergent additive work?

A detergent additive works by cleaning your car's fuel system and intake valves. When your engine is running clean, your car can perform at its best.


Aloha Petroleum

Quote:
 
Aloha Petroleum earns 'Top' rating from automakers

What does Aloha Petroleum have in common with major automakers BMW, General Motors, Honda,Toyota, Audi, and Volkswagon?

The answer is the company's gasoline has been certified to meet stringent standards for Top Tier detergent gasoline performance by each of these companies.

"The decision was made several years ago to exceed the EPA's detergency requirements because we wanted to deliver high quality gasoline to our customers," says company president Richard Parry.

The top-tier rating was established in 2004, when the major automakers noted that the average level of detergent in gasoline has slipped dramatically in the wake of additive standards the EPA established in 1995.

This development resulted in declining detergent additive levels that led to higher emissions and increased deposits on critical engine parts, which contributed to reduced engine performance.

In response, the world's leading automakers joined together to raise the bar on detergent level requirements and set a new industry standard they named "Top Tier" gasoline.

This new rating recognizes companies that demonstrate their commitment to selling only the highest quality gasoline.

"The Top Tier rating recognizes the superior detergencies of the additives in Aloha's gasoline," says Parry, whose company employs more than 350 Hawaii residents and operates over 50 fueling locations on Oahu and the Big Island.

Parry notes that Aloha's gasoline contains two to three times the amount of cleaning agents required by the EPA and that continued use of Aloha gasoline will help clean a vehicle's entire intake system.

As an added benefit, it will help prevent rough idle, hesitation and stalling; optimize fuel economy; reduce vehicle emissions; and restore vehicle performance.

Aloha Petroleum is one of only 15 gasoline brands nationwide to meet the high Top Tier standards for all grades of its gasoline.



Hmmmm, why is it the above state that TTG designation is attained just by detergents to the gas?

Once again I have proven my point.
And here is why I keep harping on this.
It appears that some people do not do any type of searching to get the correct answers. This makes them subject to scrutiny to any and all posts they make.
I back up my answers with facts derived from actual seat of the pants testing. I also ask questions to those that are in the field and have hands on knowledge.
And when I am wrong I will admit that I am wrong.
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3tech
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You are out of control.
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iamgeo
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Big League

I am just providing the proof to back up my claim.
It just seems odd to me that the proof is staring everyone in the face and there are those that still can not or will not see it.
The name calling and the patronizing are not necessary, but that is what people stoop to when they do not want to admit they are wrong.
All I did was ask a question. Could not get a straight answer. I did some research and then I provided links to the correct answer for every ones benefit. Some people did not like the way I interpreted the TTG website. I then did what I thought was right and did more research. Found out my statements were correct. Provided proof and still people do not want to admit they were wrong.
How that makes me "out of control" is beyond me.
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mwebb
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FOG


if you repeat a partial truth 1000 times , that will not make it a fact .

if anyone thinks they can pour some chevron techron in to a tank full of
F.R.E.D.'s gas and they will have a tank full of top tier fuel

they are delusional

if anyone incorrectly
assumes all the fuel sold in the USA meets the minimum EPE test requirements
WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF ANY ADDITIONAL CONTAMINANTS
they as just as delusional .

ask someone who actually fixes broken cars , like me ,
who has drained tankfuls of unknown that will not support combustion or that has dissolved the protective lining on the inside of the fuel tank and fraked the fuel pump AND the fuel filter AND the injectors .

top tier fuel that is really top tier fuel
meets both EPA and Top Tier Fuel test requirements
nuff said

i am humbly apologetic if my real life experiences conflict with anyone's
internet searches of public relations releases

no intent to offend - thank me very much
Edited by mwebb, Nov 21 2009, 09:48 PM.
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