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Which Cam to Use?; XFI, Delta, 3Tech
Topic Started: Nov 29 2009, 12:51 PM (3,797 Views)
Dgeo
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I'm trying to decide which cam to purchase. I’ve heard the delta cam regrind is not the same as the original XFI cam. The lobe separation is not the same? Does anyone have the original XFI cam specs (lift, duration, lobe separation angle). Does anyone grind a cam to the original XFI specifications? Any help in deciding which direction to go is appreciated.
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Coche Blanco
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Contact 3tech and Delta, see what they have to say. (there is some guy here, I forget his name, that will be able to help you out a lot)
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

I got the 3Tech cam and a 10 degree advanced gear and have no complaints. If you get a Delta cam, you cannot run a 10 degree advanced gear.
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Lugnutz
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The Delta cam is a duplicate of the Xfi cam including the 6 degrees of advance. They ground one for me while I was standing at the counter a few months ago. I ran the factory gear and have no complaints with it. I am going there tomorrow to talk about other grind options and will get the Xfi specs if anybody wants them.
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Coche Blanco
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Lugnutz
Nov 29 2009, 10:27 PM
The Delta cam is a duplicate of the Xfi cam including the 6 degrees of advance. They ground one for me while I was standing at the counter a few months ago. I ran the factory gear and have no complaints with it. I am going there tomorrow to talk about other grind options and will get the Xfi specs if anybody wants them.
Ask them what makes for a good fuel economy cam.
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3tech
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Lugnutz
Nov 29 2009, 10:27 PM
The Delta cam is a duplicate of the Xfi cam including the 6 degrees of advance. They ground one for me while I was standing at the counter a few months ago. I ran the factory gear and have no complaints with it. I am going there tomorrow to talk about other grind options and will get the Xfi specs if anybody wants them.
It is not.

I have degreed a number of them, and they are not ground on the same centerlines. They say they are, in their specs, but they are not.
It is my policy not to criticize the work of others, or my competitors, but I will say this. Not only are the specs listed on the sheet wrong, but the ones I saw were improperly parkerized.
When parkerizing, it is critical that the bearing journals are taped up, so as not to be affected by the acid solution. Post grinding, and parkerizing, the journals are un-taped and polished. The Delta cams were put in the tank complete, with no taping on the journals, and the journals were not polished. I wouldn't put one in my car. It takes me 4 hrs to produce a cam, so I'm not sure how they did it while you were waiting at the counter.
If saving money is your only goal, then buy from them. If you want proven products, with the proper testing, and R&D, from somebody who is not only there for tech support, but also supports, and gives back to the community, well, you know what to do. I know my cams are more money, but there is a reason for that. I can assure you, I'm not getting rich on them, and that is the best I can do.
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billy508
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billy508

:thumb :gp :gp Support those who choose to help all of us. As stated, you get what you pay for. :drivin :drivin :drivin
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

I agree with suprf1y :thumb

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Good bye


I have on of Suprf1y's economy cams and his +10 gear and I am very pleased with economy and performance in all rpm ranges.
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Murf 59
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suprf1y
Nov 30 2009, 10:32 AM
Lugnutz
Nov 29 2009, 10:27 PM
The Delta cam is a duplicate of the Xfi cam including the 6 degrees of advance. They ground one for me while I was standing at the counter a few months ago. I ran the factory gear and have no complaints with it. I am going there tomorrow to talk about other grind options and will get the Xfi specs if anybody wants them.
It is not.

I have degreed a number of them, and they are not ground on the same centerlines. They say they are, in their specs, but they are not.
It is my policy not to criticize the work of others, or my competitors, but I will say this. Not only are the specs listed on the sheet wrong, but the ones I saw were improperly parkerized.
When parkerizing, it is critical that the bearing journals are taped up, so as not to be affected by the acid solution. Post grinding, and parkerizing, the journals are un-taped and polished. The Delta cams were put in the tank complete, with no taping on the journals, and the journals were not polished. I wouldn't put one in my car. It takes me 4 hrs to produce a cam, so I'm not sure how they did it while you were waiting at the counter.
If saving money is your only goal, then buy from them. If you want proven products, with the proper testing, and R&D, from somebody who is not only there for tech support, but also supports, and gives back to the community, well, you know what to do. I know my cams are more money, but there is a reason for that. I can assure you, I'm not getting rich on them, and that is the best I can do.
Very well spoken. :rocker
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Lugnutz
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I spent close to an hour with Scott at Delta Cam yesterday, talking about the 3 cylinder 1.0 Metro/Swift camshafts. It seems that there is some confusion about the “Xfi” camshaft that they grind.

First, let me correct something from my earlier post. Before putting my engine together I searched the internet (including the Geo Metro forum) for cam choices to obtain the best MPG. I found either the "Delta Xfi” or "3tech economy cam." Since Delta isn't too far of a distant from my house and I've used their cams before, that’s where I went. When I originally asked Delta about grinding the Xfi cam they said sure, not a problem. I did not ask if the 6 degree advance was part of the grind because 1) At that time I didn’t know enough about the Xfi cams with the extra advance and 2) I assumed that it was a copycat of the original since it had come recommended. Conclusion, I was wrong for spreading bad information that I did not look into before opening my mouth.

After becoming better "educated" I decided to go back and discuss the advance issue. After speaking with Scott about this issue, I now have an even better understanding and will pass it on to anyone who may be interested.

Delta’s reground “Xfi” cam is “in fact” a copy of the original Xfi “profile” design ground onto a Base/Lsi camshaft. “Profile” meaning lift, duration, and lobe separation. Where things start to get confusing is the intake centerline (not to be confused with lobe separation). That is the difference between the original and the reground, which means, the 6 degrees of advance is “not” there. This is because there is not enough meat or metal in the lobes to grind in the 6 degrees of advance. Therefore, if a person is running a "Delta Xfi” cam, a 6 degree advance gear “must” be used to duplicate the factory Xfi cam. As a side note, since the "Delta Xfi” cam does not have the advance ground into it, it can be set up more or less advanced as the builder sees fit for his particular needs.
Their specs were taken off an original Xfi cam that a customer supplied. And to verify their numbers, I am now looking to obtain a real “Xfi” camshaft to compare them to.

Now, since we are on the topic of advancing cams, let’s look at the advanced gear and what it does. We all know that when a camshaft is advanced the torque curve or power band is lowered and when it is retarded the torque curve moves higher. I have seen many people post that they have installed an advanced gear on the factory Base/Lsi cam and rave about it being the biggest bang for the buck. I don’t doubt this because you are moving the torque curve lower in RPM.

I hope no one feels that this is an attack against 3tech or his products. I just like to compare apples to apples. I have not personally seen his cam card for the “economy cam” as of yet, and the only thing I have read about them is that they offer a few more MPG, (which is really hard to nail down due to driving styles.) The cam allows you to putt around in a higher gear at a lower rpm and is similar to the “Xfi” grind specs. I can see those results because the cam gear advances the cam lowering the torque curve where as the reground “Xfi” cam is not advanced. Again, back to the Base/Lsi cam scenario with just using the advance gear….it does work no question about it.

Superfly: while I was at Delta I showed Scott this thread and he didn’t have anything bad to say. In fact he said you were 95% correct in what you did say. But, you made it sound really critical as if every cam has to be done your way. It’s like telling everybody that the left shoe has to be tied in a certain way before the right shoe.

I’m not sure how you operate your shop and I’m not questioning that but, they typically do V8 cams in less than two hours and that’s including Parkerizing. Unless you are welding lobes or getting into something custom for the customers than it’s a whole different process all together and sure, it will take longer to do.

I can, in fact, stand at the counter while they re-grind a 1.0 cam. I never said I was only standing there for a few minutes. And I purchased an “Xfi” cam and it was fully parkerized. I have not had any issues with it nor any of the cams I have ever purchased from them.

I’m not doubting or attacking your products, in fact it’s the other way around. You have done the R&D for the 1.0 engine and deserve the credit for that. To my knowledge you are the only one producing any kind of performance cam, head package, or cam gears for these engines and without you we wouldn’t have options.

And to agree with what you have said, if saving money is the only goal then we as a consumer can purchase Delta’s “Xfi” cam. But, we now know, or at least I now know, that I have to purchase one of your gears to make my cam work as an original “Xfi” cam.

Lastly, as you have said, if we want proven products, with R&D, and tech support you are the place to go. Delta does not get into performance development of the 1.0 engine’s at all. I have read many posts and your name keeps coming up. You have the “been there, done that attitude” which is good, so, I have no doubt that you know what works and what does not work. Nobody said knowledge came cheap. I just wanted a better understanding of what was available.
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Dgeo
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Lugnutz
Dec 1 2009, 10:04 PM
I spent close to an hour with Scott at Delta Cam yesterday, talking about the 3 cylinder 1.0 Metro/Swift camshafts. It seems that there is some confusion about the “Xfi” camshaft that they grind.

First, let me correct something from my earlier post. Before putting my engine together I searched the internet (including the Geo Metro forum) for cam choices to obtain the best MPG. I found either the "Delta Xfi” or "3tech economy cam." Since Delta isn't too far of a distant from my house and I've used their cams before, that’s where I went. When I originally asked Delta about grinding the Xfi cam they said sure, not a problem. I did not ask if the 6 degree advance was part of the grind because 1) At that time I didn’t know enough about the Xfi cams with the extra advance and 2) I assumed that it was a copycat of the original since it had come recommended. Conclusion, I was wrong for spreading bad information that I did not look into before opening my mouth.

After becoming better "educated" I decided to go back and discuss the advance issue. After speaking with Scott about this issue, I now have an even better understanding and will pass it on to anyone who may be interested.

Delta’s reground “Xfi” cam is “in fact” a copy of the original Xfi “profile” design ground onto a Base/Lsi camshaft. “Profile” meaning lift, duration, and lobe separation. Where things start to get confusing is the intake centerline (not to be confused with lobe separation). That is the difference between the original and the reground, which means, the 6 degrees of advance is “not” there. This is because there is not enough meat or metal in the lobes to grind in the 6 degrees of advance. Therefore, if a person is running a "Delta Xfi” cam, a 6 degree advance gear “must” be used to duplicate the factory Xfi cam. As a side note, since the "Delta Xfi” cam does not have the advance ground into it, it can be set up more or less advanced as the builder sees fit for his particular needs.
Their specs were taken off an original Xfi cam that a customer supplied. And to verify their numbers, I am now looking to obtain a real “Xfi” camshaft to compare them to.

Now, since we are on the topic of advancing cams, let’s look at the advanced gear and what it does. We all know that when a camshaft is advanced the torque curve or power band is lowered and when it is retarded the torque curve moves higher. I have seen many people post that they have installed an advanced gear on the factory Base/Lsi cam and rave about it being the biggest bang for the buck. I don’t doubt this because you are moving the torque curve lower in RPM.

I hope no one feels that this is an attack against 3tech or his products. I just like to compare apples to apples. I have not personally seen his cam card for the “economy cam” as of yet, and the only thing I have read about them is that they offer a few more MPG, (which is really hard to nail down due to driving styles.) The cam allows you to putt around in a higher gear at a lower rpm and is similar to the “Xfi” grind specs. I can see those results because the cam gear advances the cam lowering the torque curve where as the reground “Xfi” cam is not advanced. Again, back to the Base/Lsi cam scenario with just using the advance gear….it does work no question about it.

Superfly: while I was at Delta I showed Scott this thread and he didn’t have anything bad to say. In fact he said you were 95% correct in what you did say. But, you made it sound really critical as if every cam has to be done your way. It’s like telling everybody that the left shoe has to be tied in a certain way before the right shoe.

I’m not sure how you operate your shop and I’m not questioning that but, they typically do V8 cams in less than two hours and that’s including Parkerizing. Unless you are welding lobes or getting into something custom for the customers than it’s a whole different process all together and sure, it will take longer to do.

I can, in fact, stand at the counter while they re-grind a 1.0 cam. I never said I was only standing there for a few minutes. And I purchased an “Xfi” cam and it was fully parkerized. I have not had any issues with it nor any of the cams I have ever purchased from them.

I’m not doubting or attacking your products, in fact it’s the other way around. You have done the R&D for the 1.0 engine and deserve the credit for that. To my knowledge you are the only one producing any kind of performance cam, head package, or cam gears for these engines and without you we wouldn’t have options.

And to agree with what you have said, if saving money is the only goal then we as a consumer can purchase Delta’s “Xfi” cam. But, we now know, or at least I now know, that I have to purchase one of your gears to make my cam work as an original “Xfi” cam.

Lastly, as you have said, if we want proven products, with R&D, and tech support you are the place to go. Delta does not get into performance development of the 1.0 engine’s at all. I have read many posts and your name keeps coming up. You have the “been there, done that attitude” which is good, so, I have no doubt that you know what works and what does not work. Nobody said knowledge came cheap. I just wanted a better understanding of what was available.
Very nice. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumb
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Nick
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yay! free cams for everyone....or not.
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starscream5000
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Got 70 MPG?

billy508
Nov 30 2009, 10:46 AM
:thumb :gp :gp Support those who choose to help all of us. As stated, you get what you pay for. :drivin :drivin :drivin
Indeed, I just paid for a full eco head package from Mike yesterday. Every bell and whistle included too B-)
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3tech
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Quote:
 
Superfly: while I was at Delta I showed Scott this thread and he didn’t have anything bad to say. In fact he said you were 95% correct in what you did say. But, you made it sound really critical as if every cam has to be done your way. It’s like telling everybody that the left shoe has to be tied in a certain way before the right shoe.


No, not really. It is important that things are done properly.
It's not my way at all, it's the right way.
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