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No Spark??; Wont Start
Topic Started: Feb 20 2010, 01:27 AM (14,211 Views)
mwebb
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FOG

oneofakinder
Mar 7 2010, 01:33 PM
OK, I found out I can do this by myself with long enough test leads....

But while it's cranking over I get 0.26 Volts on both wires from the CMP.

Mwebb said he wants to me to check the 2 PINS at the ECM to make sure the signal is making it to the ECM. Which 2 pins should I be checking at the ECM?
mine is a 1996
but
on mine cranking before start , CMP voltage peak to peak is 1.64 volts AC as per scope waveforms
CKP peak to peak is 2.35 volts AC
so
a measured 260mv AC is TOO low , your new used CMP is KA-KA
Posted Image
right click on image , select view image , click 2x to expand image

it would be easier for me if i could upload images straight to the forum as opposed to first creating a file then uploading to flickr
(Hint Hint to admin )
but i will upload the image tomorrow anyway , the old tedious way ....

KA-KA is a technical term

in the meantime ...
there is wiring diagrams located the heading for this metro tech sub forum ... so i would recommend that you down load and print the diagrams for your car , you do not need to get to the ECM just yet though.
Edited by mwebb, Mar 8 2010, 12:23 AM.
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mwebb
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FOG

i should add
there is a minimum CMP voltage , below which the ECM will not see it , i do not know the value .
but
from information in this thread

i can postulate the value is above 260mv AC and below 1.64 volts AC
and

if you connect the CMP back ward s
the system will not work , it may not be possible , i dunno , but if it is , the wire position matters

note in the image above
CMP and CKP leading edge of the waveform is rising , if the sensor is connected back wards
the leading edge will be descending ,
MR ECM will not like that and at best will provide spark at the wrong time and at worst will do nothing at all
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bogs
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Duct tape heals all wounds

Mwebb
 
KA-KA is a technical term

I LOVE it when you talk all technical like that, baby :lol
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
so Basically before I go any farther I should get another CMP?
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
My buddies at the salvage yard are pulling me another distributor with the pickup coil. I will post results as soon as I know anything.
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
Alright, got the new/used distributor. Same thing the CMP is bad, that makes 3 bad CMP's I have now, and my sister doesn't want to buy a new one. So I dont know what to do now.
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
Alright, I got another distributor today, out of a RUNNING 93 Metro 1.0L. We'll see what it does as soon as the key is brought back to me.
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
OK, The distributor is in, I also grabbed the coil off the running car. Got the key, Still wont start, just turns and turns and turns and turns. And the same 0.26 voltage at the CMP. Where do I go now?? I'm at a loss of what's going on or where to go next. Like I said I heard this car run at the wrecking yard, someone ran into the back of it, that's why it was in the wrecking yard. PLEASE HELP.

A side note, this makes 4 distributors now, 4 different CMP's, and the same voltage on all of them while cranking over.
Edited by oneofakinder, Mar 10 2010, 06:42 PM.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

Granted you followed mwebb's Test CKP and/or CMP sensor and Voltage Drop.

WORST CASE SCENARIO. This running metro you got the distributor out of... what year was it? I'm thinking that the Load Dump may have fried the ECM. IF fried then there is one that you could replace it with if a Load Dump fried it.

Do you have a Service Manual?

I searched 'ECM test' and you can check 97 Metro LSi and Code 15 on ECU... for what appears to be more testing. I have not seen advice on a good CMP and what's next.
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
The Distributor and coil came out of a fully running 93 Metro 1.0L canadian model with a manual transmission, same exact car that I have, just a different color. I followed the CMP testing to a "T", I've never tested the CKP cuz I've been told I dont have one, and I dont have a knock sensor. I do not have a service manual, I have the Owners manual. The ECM I got was also out of a 93 Metro 1.0L canadian model with a manual transmission, I have know idea what was wrong with it originally, It was from a different salvage yard. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions you all have given me. Thank You

Another Side note, I have no check engine light, or codes, even with the fuse in the test position in the fuse block with the key ON.
Edited by oneofakinder, Mar 10 2010, 08:35 PM.
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mwebb
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FOG

oneofakinder
Mar 10 2010, 08:19 PM
The Distributor and coil came out of a fully running 93 Metro 1.0L canadian model with a manual transmission, same exact car that I have, just a different color. I followed the CMP testing to a "T", I've never tested the CKP cuz I've been told I dont have one, and I dont have a knock sensor. I do not have a service manual, I have the Owners manual. The ECM I got was also out of a 93 Metro 1.0L canadian model with a manual transmission, I have know idea what was wrong with it originally, It was from a different salvage yard. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions you all have given me. Thank You

Another Side note, I have no check engine light, or codes, even with the fuse in the test position in the fuse block with the key ON.
with key on engine off
is the check engine light on ?
even for a few seconds ?

have you checked power and ground to the ECM yet ?
voltage drop testing .
=======================================
there is no CKP or knock sensor on your car .
=======================================
IF
you connect the DVOM to the distributor connector for the CMP
while it is disconnected from the harness
and crank the engine
with the starter

what is the AC voltage across the two pins ?
Edited by mwebb, Mar 10 2010, 10:52 PM.
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
mwebb, are you telling me to "Jumper" a wire across the the CMP wires? with the harness disconnected, and test the voltage while cranking the engine over? If so, I can do that in the morning to see what that voltage is and I will post it. Again, Thank you all
Edited by oneofakinder, Mar 10 2010, 11:42 PM.
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oneofakinder
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Trying Hard To Like Metro!
[ *  *  * ]
OK, test results..... DVOM reading across the two pins disconnected from the harness. 0.00V. Reading from red pin to ground, 0.00V, Reading from white pin to ground, 0.00V. Another test I did, with the harness hooked up. Key on, not cranking over, voltage at both pins is 0.17V, and 0.27 while cranking over. If I knew how to test for voltage at the ECM I would, but I have no idea which wires I need to test.

Another thing, the check engine light doesn't ever come on, not even for a split second.
Edited by oneofakinder, Mar 12 2010, 06:06 PM.
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jellybean


hey I'm surprised you have not got the BFH out yet. but i do admire determination. looked at the wiring for my 97 and the dome light fuse also supply's power to the pcm always on and the coil fuse is the switched power source. the manual says that in your case of no mil ,check for a shorted to ground 5 volt reference circuit tpsensor or map and isc but you don't have that.just see if you have the 5v key on in these sensors. also as, as m webb said, to check pcm ignition feed and battery feed or for a poor pcm to engine ground (back of the intake manifold ground wires) You've replaced everything have you tried putting the parts back where you got them to see if they still worked after you installed them as a double test. Its starting to sound like a classic case of magic smoke release from your wiring harness
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mwebb
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FOG

oneofakinder
Mar 12 2010, 05:34 PM
OK, test results..... DVOM reading across the two pins disconnected from the harness. 0.00V. Reading from red pin to ground, 0.00V, Reading from white pin to ground, 0.00V. Another test I did, with the harness hooked up. Key on, not cranking over, voltage at both pins is 0.17V, and 0.27 while cranking over. If I knew how to test for voltage at the ECM I would, but I have no idea which wires I need to test.

Another thing,
the check engine light doesn't ever come on, not even for a split second.

when i say to measure voltage across the CMP with the engine cranking i mean
with the harness disconnected from the CMP
on the CMP itself
1 test lead to one CMP pin
1 test lead to the other CMP pin
DVOM on AC volts
operate starter , what is the value ? if it is .26 volts the CMP does not work , or the timing belt is broken and the CMP is not spinning

so
your cranking the starter voltage on the CMP matches your key on engine off voltage on the CMP ?
if true
then the CMP is not functioning at all it is KA-KA ,or the timing belt is broken and the CMP is not spinning
based on what you have reported , there is no other possibility

this does not make sense ? what are you not reporting. .... think
========================================================
what is above appears to be moot
if the CEL never lights up
either the bulb is burned out or removed
or the CEL bulb circuit is damaged
or there is a problem with power or ground to the ECM
or the ECM is no good

DO NOT REPLACE ANY PARTS YET
get the wiring diagram from the top thread in this forum
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