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Help please? '89 Metro LSI
Topic Started: Aug 31 2010, 12:59 AM (2,206 Views)
trident
New Member
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Ok, flame on if you have to, but I'm in a bit of a spot. I need to get this Metro running, and everything I've done seems to put me farther away from my objective.

I picked up an '89 Metro LSI a couple of days ago to use as a back and forth to work. We recently purchased a second minivan with the intentions of selling our old one, and the old one sold yesterday. So: Wife + 3 kids one direction, me a different direction. Provided I have transportation that is. At the moment, I don't. We all have our story, so I won't bore you with mine. Obviously, I need a way to get to work, and I spent the only extra money we had on this car.

When I test drove it, I inspected the TPS and dizzy pretty closely. It did run, but took several attempts to get started. Once started, it ran fine, but would not idle (it would die). I brought it home and it sat for a couple of days, when I went to start it, it wouldn't start.

Adjusted the throttle stop screw a tiny smidge, and got it started. No other adjustments, and let it sit for another couple of days. When I went to start it, it took several attempts but it did start. Ran some Seafoam through it, vacuum, crankcase and gas tank. It had about 3 gallons of fuel in it, I put nearly 1/2 a can of Seafoam in the tank, it just happened to be what was left of the bottle. Added another 7 gallons of fuel a couple of days ago. No additional changes, it smoked like crazy. When I went to start it next time, it wouldn't start. Adjusted the throttle stop screw again, but this time I bumped the TPS a little to help it idle. Got it running, and put it in the driveway.

Went to get a couple of pizza's last night and it started right up. When I got to the pizza place, it would not start again. The wife was thrilled, but rescued me and brought my tools. I finally got it running by cranking the timing to about 12btdc, completely backing out the throttle set screw, and playing with the TPS. It ran like crap, and died at every light, but I got it home. Retimed it to 8btdc with the C-D jumper in and the dizzy hoses plugged, set the throttle set screw to just where it stopped sticking, adjusted the TPS by ear and took it for a 1/2 hour ride. Ran really nice, parked it in the driveway and went to bed.

Got up this morning to go to work and...it wouldn't start. Ended up calling in to work, I'm thinking, how hard can this be? It either runs fine and won't idle, or idles fine and won't restart. I spent the entire day trying to get it to fire and no joy. Honestly, it acts like the injector is simply on all the time, it floods no matter what I seem to adjust.

So, please help me baseline this car? I know it runs and starts, and either I broke or damaged something in my efforts today, or I've just got something so far out of whack that it's dumping fuel into the intake.

I did remove the TPS today in an effort to insure the throttle shaft wasn't worn, and now I get either 00.0 ohms on the DVOM, or I get O.L. (short). Did I break it? I was very careful both removing and replacing it, and checked and double checked to make sure it was positioned correctly on the throttle shaft before I tightened anything down. Maybe the seafoam did the injector in, and it's stuck open? Is there a way to just unplug something and shut it off? I unplugged the white connector on the front pass. side, on top of the TBI, pulled the plugs and let it dry out, centered the TPS, pumped the pedal once and it still dumped massive fuel in. What am I missing?

Can someone tell me what state the injector should be in when the TPS is at 00.0 Ohms / and when it's shorted? Also, is the TPS a bell curve type of adjustment, or is it linear? In other words, if it's all working, should it output voltage when it's in the middle of it's travel and drop off on each end, or does it go higher to lower as the TPS is turned in one direction?

PM'd Bad Bent a couple of times (thank you!) and he said something about hoses above the alternator not getting hot and then the TBI will run rich. It wouldn't seem to make any difference if it won't start cold, but I'm curious about this. How do I diagnose if these heater pipes are working? Does the system need to be burped, it looks like these hoses are higher than the top of the rad.

I'm broke, been laid off for a couple of years, and now the temp work I found is at risk if I can't get this pile running. Pretty stupid position to put myself in, I know. This is really frustrating, it just doesn't seem like it should be this difficult, the car ran and drove last night! I've been reading lots of stuff here, and Bad Bent's TPS thread is what I used to try to adjust my TPS, complete with feeler gauge, gator clips, etc. I did a BIN on ebay and have an '89 FSM on the way, I needed it yesterday...

Please feel free to laugh, flame and make snide comments, but if you can offer some constructive advice, I'd sure appreciate it.
Thanks metro-folks, I'd call this car a beater with a heater, but apparently the heater isn't working.
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

Compression test.
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zippy
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sounds like what mine was doing before my head replacement. i think your compression is too low. mine would run fine when started, would die at lights, and would be like wrestling a bear to get her to fire up. suprisingly, she would run pretty well with the low compression numbers which made it hard to figure out the problem. go to autozone or the like and borrow their compression tester and check the readings.
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trident
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I probably should do a comp check, I'm running over to NAPA in a bit, not sure if they lend tools or not...

I did change the oil, put in 20-50W and about 8oz of Lucas. Messed with it a little bit this morning, I'll post more later. :)
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Coche Blanco
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Troll Certified

20/50 is too thick
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Rooy


20W50 is way too thick for these engines. The bleed holes in the lifters are very small, and thick oil will not drain out fast enough which will overpump the lifters and keep the valves from closing.
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trident
New Member
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Of course. My thought was to see if I could put something in thick enough to build compression a little bit. Now I've overpumped the lifters. Yay. Ok, I'll drain it out and put 10-40 in it.

How do I get the 20-50 out of the lifters, MMO?
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mcmancuso
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5w30 is what it needs, don't put w40 in it unless its 0w40. while its sitting, it ought to push most of it out, you could always take the lifters out and clean them though. You shouldn't have moved the idle screw, its set correctly from the factory and does not need adjustment. TPS adjustment instructions are here: http://geometroforum.com/topic/1341780/1/#new
Edited by mcmancuso, Aug 31 2010, 06:53 PM.
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

and to toss something in from my own experience, i had the fuel pressure regulator located in the throttle body go to hell and cause a very similar problem.

the spring gets weak and the regulator internals just catch all the crud, rust, and scale. there used to be rebuild kits available but i haven't used those parts in 5 years. check the fuel pressure per the service manual instructions, that affects the injector operation and really balls up starting.
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

:gp
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trident
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Awesome info, thanks folks.

So, what I did today:

-Drained the seafoam oil out, put in 20-50.
-Put in a set of NGK plugs, gapped to .040

Still no start, so I checked in here. Yikes! I'm an idiot. Drained the 20-50W and put in 10-40W (it's all I had here) AND about 8oz of Marvel Mystery oil. Still wouldn't start.

-Picked up anther TBI. Guy said it had been on the shelf a long time, but I got it and the intake pretty cheap. All the caps and so forth were in place, it's never been buggered with. Considered installing the whole thing, but decided to just go with the TBI when I realized the throttle stop screw was part of the assy.
-Put the TBI on, and same symptoms, lots of fuel, no fire.
-Borrowed the neighbors battery boost box (mine is a 3-in-1 jumper box) and it was trying to start. Sounded really close.
-Got to thinking it had run on the Champion plugs the kid had in it, and checked the gap on them. Hmmmm, .032-.035. Put the Champions back in. Even closer to starting.
-Regapped the plugs to .030, and got it running.
-Rechecked the timing, marked the TPS to make sure I knew where it was if I had to change it.
-It ran, but wouldn't idle. Hahahaha...

Drove it my second job this evening, and when I got in the parking lot, it died and wouldn't restart. I didn't care, I went to work. When I came out, it whirred and whirred, but just wouldn't catch. Finally gave up and called the wife to bring my jumper box. Put the jumper box on it, and it started the first try, and I drove it home. Still keeps dying at idle, but at least it runs. I'm getting pretty good at downshifting or popping it out of gear and coasting into stop lights, one foot on the brake, one on the gas.

Yesterday, I pulled out the Kenwood faceless CD and most of the speaker wiring, as well as the cruise control stuff. It almost looks like the cruise was a dealer add on. It was a pretty clean install and even had a little hole drilled in the lower steering wheel shroud for the stalk. The car had been shocking me when I touched the door after I shut it off, and it was bugging me. I thought pulling this stuff out would stop it, but it didn't.

So, after all this, it looks like my problem might be an electrical problem (besides the obvious lack of compression). I need to investigate my errant voltage, something is putting power to the body somewhere. It's not significant enough to drain the battery overnight, but it looks like it might be interfering with the charge and/or start circuit. I should have caught this when the car spun right up on the AC powered battery booster, but didn't put two & two together until it started tonight with just the jumper box. Got it running, and with enough power it will start, at least that's something, right?
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trident
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zippy
Aug 31 2010, 07:47 AM
sounds like what mine was doing before my head replacement. i think your compression is too low. mine would run fine when started, would die at lights, and would be like wrestling a bear to get her to fire up. suprisingly, she would run pretty well with the low compression numbers which made it hard to figure out the problem. go to autozone or the like and borrow their compression tester and check the readings.
I'm curious about your head replacement. Still haven't done a compression check, it's pretty obvious the findings will be low. Did you do a leak down test to determine the head was the problem?

I owned a 3 cylinder Daewoo Tico in South Korea for a few years, it was a 4 door and about 3/4 the size of a Metro. One of my friends there was an ex-Australian road bike racer. He helped me tweak the engine quite a bit, we indexed the plugs, shaved the head, and cut one tube off a motorcycle exhaust and built our own 'header'. Car was a lot of fun, and got about 52 mpg if I kept my foot out of it. It would scream 0-100kph, but after about 140kph it was all done. Rev'd like a blender, and was a total blast to drive after we lowered it.... :drivin

What steps should I take to determine if the low comp is due to valves or if it's simply rings?

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'm planning to wring out some electrical stuff this weekend. It's got a huge 1/0 or 2/0 positive battery cable, and I'm guessing this was added either to overcome the lack of compression or for a stereo long ago. Loss should be minimal at 30", but I'm suspicious of the whole set up. I'd really like to find out what is zapping me when I touch the body. I'll look at lamps, switches, etc.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

Well it sounds like you are doing better?

You can "T" a vacuum gauge into the MAP vacuum line and see if there is any flutter in the needle which should be steady at 20" of vacuum. The only option on compression is a Compression test.

You should not get zapped when you touch the body, something is seriously wrong to have electrical current flowing through the frame. Unless they reversed some cables? This would account for any battery drain and hard starting.
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Jittney
Anchorage 92 XFi

If Bad Bent were on here, he'd tell you that for $10 of new hose you can replace the hoses by the TB. The old hoses develop cracks and it affects the idle.
As for electrical... the grounds on the back of the intake manifold typically corrode and you just take them off, clean them up with a bit of sand paper or something and then put them back on. Also clean up the ground from the battery to the transmission. Bad grounds will affect your ability to start the car.
If you're near a Harbor Freight, they have a compression tester for $10 and a vacuum tester for a decent price.
Keep us posted.

edit....lol...and there's BB posting while I'm posting....but he's faster at this. :thumb
Edited by Jittney, Sep 3 2010, 01:30 AM.
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trident
New Member
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Thanks for checking in Bad Bent, Jittney. The car is running now, but still really hard to start. I'm not actually driving it until I figure out what is up. If it needs a head, then I'll have to find one.

From memory re: compression testing: wet/dry results are low dry and then higher wet = it needs rings. Close or the same wet/dry = worn valves. Yes?

Got my '89 FSM in the mail yesterday. Good stuff.
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