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| Mom gets 1.5 million dolar fine for downloading 24 songs; Crazy | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 5 2010, 06:51 AM (4,323 Views) | |
| Car Nut | Nov 5 2010, 06:51 AM Post #1 |
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http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/amplifier/148/minnesota-mom-hit-with-15-million-fine-for-downloading-24-songs/ |
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| Horn | Nov 5 2010, 10:10 AM Post #2 |
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yea I saw that.....that is ridiculous. yea its stealing but really that much |
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| Coche Blanco | Nov 5 2010, 10:12 AM Post #3 |
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Troll Certified
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She listens to 1,700 songs by Green Day, Aerosmith and Richard Marx. She deserves it. |
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| nerys | Nov 5 2010, 11:12 AM Post #4 |
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Grr
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Horn please lets restrain ourselves to the US english language here. NO THEFT has occurred. it is not stealing. (does not mean its RIGHT but thats up for debate) If you have a Geo Metro sitting in your driveway. I come by with my handy dandy scanner and I SCAN your geo metro down to the molecular level. Your geo still sits in your driveway 100% fine nothing changed. I go home and turn on my industrial replicator and say Computer 1 geo metro please and using that scanned data it takes protons neutrons and electrons and assembles from the atom up an exact duplicate of your geo metro. so now there are TWO geo metro's one sitting in your driveway one sitting in MY driveway. did I steal your geo metro? of course not its sitting right their in your driveway. I made a COPY of your geo the actual MATTER my copy is made of belongs to me. I stole them from no one. When you download an mp3 when you "tune in" an fm radio station. you are simply replicating what was on the other end. Nothing more. Nothing is stolen. no theft of any kind has occurred. it is a legal farce and illogical to call it theft or stealing. This is what happens when the corporations get to write the laws. why call it theft? because the crime it ACTUALLY IS, copyright infringement for a non profit non malicious intent, is NOT A CRIME AT ALL. its a civil infraction nothing more and normally this penalty is STRICTLY limited to actual damage and intent. since it was non profit and non malicious the penalty would be ZERO since ZERO DAMAGE has occurred. its nothing more than a violation of your copy PRIVILEGE (copy right is a misnomer) that is GRANTED you by the state. SO they are trying to distort our very language to call copying something STEALING something because THEFT and STEAL have a criminal connection in our language. IE a negative connotation that is much greater than merely copying something. I honestly see nothing wrong with "file sharing" it is absolutely no different than hitting record on your recorder when you tune in a song you like on your radio. in fact many MP3 players have this capacity built right in. On my little $22 sansa fuze player I can press record anytime I wish and make an mp3 from what I am listening to on the radio and its 100% moral and 100% legal. so whats the difference between downloading an mp3 from a website and downloading an mp3 from 99.5fm. Nothing. No difference whatsoever. file sharing is nothing more than "public radio" but in OUR control. It is not in reality illegal and never should be. |
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| superduty5.9 | Nov 5 2010, 11:33 AM Post #5 |
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Metro Defender
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I agree nerys. I have Dishnetwork sat tv. It has a 500 gig recorder built in. I can record tv shows, movies, digital music, whatever. I also have a Pocket Dish. It's a mp3/mp4 for music or movies to allow you to take your recordings with you. It is no different then downloading. Also a lot of movies you buy come with a digital copy to watch on your computer or ipod. I just bought at Wally World Toy Story 3 for the kids. We paid to watch at the drive-in, I downloaded a copy to watch at home and now I bought a legal copy and it came with a digital copy. It is not stealing. |
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| Horn | Nov 5 2010, 03:01 PM Post #6 |
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the US english language? there are various types, lots of slang? Do you want my midwest, southern, east coast, west coast? which U.S. english language.....o yea we dont have a national language. and I don't really consider it stealing but if i wouldn't have said that someone would have said it was stealing. and for your stupid scan machine you really think if you had a machine like that it would be legal? Hell no. you would never have to buy a car again, therefore you might as well shut down car dealerships. You might as well just start copying then printing money too. |
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| Coche Blanco | Nov 5 2010, 03:05 PM Post #7 |
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Troll Certified
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| nerys | Nov 5 2010, 06:11 PM Post #8 |
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Grr
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thats the idea horn. thats the. with free or nearly free energy and matter replication well you figure out what the result of that would be. Not pretty for "profit seekers" it would be the single greatest achievement of mankind as it would it would empower EVERYONE equally and STRIP all the ill gotten power from those hoarding it. It would be the ULTIMATE leveler eliminating 100% of "need" WE HAVE that technology now with anything digital. the people currently LEECHING off our innovators (the artists) know that their man in the middle SCAM they perpetrate by manipulating and controlling by total monopoly this industry comes to an END of this technology EMPOWERS ARTISTS. Just like world wide matter replication would empower ALL people. you see this kind of technology spells the eventual END of the scamming leeching middle men we call the RIAA and MPAA and Networks. they know this they see this so they FIGHT to resist it. The first thing you need to do to defeat something that is just is to demonize it. the delude the people into thinking something that is good is something bad. |
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| superduty5.9 | Nov 5 2010, 09:21 PM Post #9 |
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Metro Defender
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Nerys it would be great to cut out the middle man. I would much rather give my money to the artist then the greedy record companies. Instead of a cd costing $10-12 and the artist getting maybe $1. It would be nice to buy a cd for $5-6 and 100% go to the artist. F the big record companies. |
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| nerys | Nov 6 2010, 12:55 AM Post #10 |
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Grr
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ahh superduty its a lot worse than that. the average artist IF THEY ARE LUCKY and actually make any profit at all (many end up OWNING the labels money !!) get around 5 cents a CD. some of the BIG and I mean BIG names in music (think metallica billy joel madonna) might get around 25 cents a CD sold. the thing is the combination of a LOT of technologies (cheap power computers - internet hosting - internet delivery - compact storage (mp3) - cheap duplication/mastering - home studio's etc..) all together spell the END Of "labels" and this scares the crap out of them. their ilk is no longer needed and they know it. think about this. YOU CAN NOT SUE YOUR CUSTOMERS and hope to survive. so how are they doing it? well thats your mistake. you assumed you are the customer. you are not. you are a customer of an artists. THE ARTISTS is the "customer" of the label and they have a stranglehold on the artists. Edited by nerys, Nov 6 2010, 12:56 AM.
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| Woodie | Nov 6 2010, 05:55 AM Post #11 |
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No question it is stealing, but this decision is ridiculous. Nerys, with your magic scanner and replicator, you stole nothing from the Metro owner, but you did steal from the manufacturer. |
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| billy508 | Nov 6 2010, 09:39 AM Post #12 |
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billy508
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Check out this link for cd/dvd shredders. Dont think I ever thought how to get rid of them. http://cryptome.org/0002/nsa-04-02-j.pdf
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| KY Metro | Nov 6 2010, 10:41 AM Post #13 |
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Member
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Nerys, what that woman did is not theft, but may represent a serious loss to the musicians and record companies. Similar problems are experienced with "bootleg" live tapes and Youtube videos. I can tell you how this actually works for the "common" musician, since I happen to be one, with CDs for sale. Our CDs are recorded and produced at home on professional grade equipment, no record label, and so we DO keep all the money. Most independent artists do the same, and make about 80% or better of the price, but low sales volume is a big obstacle. There are about 80 FREE MP3s we recorded listed here: http://cumberlandbooks.com/freesongs.php These are all public domain, thus royalty free. CD's and MP3s represent POTENTIAL sales. Not actual ones. If you steal one of my CDs, it represents a physical loss of about a dollar. MP3s represent no physical loss at all. The question is, what did I lose in potential sales? That is hard to say. Were you going to buy a CD, but decided to steal it instead? That represents a loss of $15 in potential sales. But what if you stole it because you liked the music but couldn't afford to buy one? Then there was no potential sale, and thus no loss. I would have just given you one, if you had told me your situation. Now suppose the "stolen" music makes some new fans, who then go to live shows and buy other CDs, bring their friends, or even hire us for a gig? We've given away almost as many CDs as we've sold, in this effort. This is a real issue and there are several creative solutions to the problem. One of my favorites, from the founder of CD Baby goes like this: Read comments from musicians who tried this: http://sivers.org/livecd (This is a rather long post for me BTW, and I do not intend to respond again in this thread.) |
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| nerys | Nov 6 2010, 11:37 AM Post #14 |
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Grr
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really woodie? please enlighten me as to what I have stolen from GM/Geo/Suzuki? All the protons neutrons and electrons in the replicated car belong to me. They are my property. There is NOTHING in this replicated car EXCEPT protons neutrons and electrons. Lets get even MORE DICEY here. if I REPLICATE the car and remove ALL TM markings (all emblems and names) did you know this is now 100% legal? I am violating absolutely NO LAW now.You can't copyright a car. There are no PATENTS on this car (especially one as simple as the geo) and you can not TRADEMARK a car (only a name or logo) so again woodie. Enlighten me as to what I have stolen. I have infringed. YES. but NO theft has occured PERIOD. In lamens terms CLEARLY no theft or stealing has occured. Just pick up your favorite dictionary. Lets get EVEN MORE into this. Lets use Black's Law Dictionary. This is what the courts will use to define these terms. THEFT "Definition: The unlawful taking, carrying, leading, or riding away of property from the possession or constructive possession of another. Constructive possession is defined by Black's Law Dictionary, 6th ed. as "where one does not have physical custody or possession, but is in a position to exercise dominion or control over a thing." Please show me what property I have taken? More Black's law Definitions for you " steal 1. To take (personal property) illegally with the intent to keep it unlawfully. 2. To take (something) by larceny, embezzlement, or false pretenses. larceny The unlawful taking and carrying away of someone else’s personal property with the intent to deprive the possessor of it permanently. Common-law larceny has been broadened by some statutes to include embezzlement and false pretenses, all three of which are often subsumed under the statutory crime of “theft” theft 1 The felonious taking and removing of another’s personal property with the intent of depriving the true owner of it; larceny. 2 Broadly, any act or instance of stealing, including larceny, burglary, embezzlement and false pretenses. Many modern penal codes have consolidated such property offences under the name “theft”" So once again PLEASE show me what property I have deprived Suzuki of? AND AGAIN we have clear cases of this being LEGAL in one form but not legal in another form even though the acts are virtually identical and result in exactly the same end result. KY Metro. it is historically proven over and over again (and you have yourself discovered this based on your post) that Free Distribution of music (Radio) IMPROVES financial results. Period. this is an indisputable fact. MP3 is nothing more than a digital form of "FM RADIO" the issue is NOT potential loss of sales. thats irrelevant. you can and will never be able to estimate or predict this and to try is fool hardy AT BEST. when I make a physical copy of your CD and con some joe into paying me $10 for it. THAT is a material loss of a potential sale. Consider this. Your song plays over 99.5 FM radio. I press RECORD on my little sansa player. I now have an MP3 of your latest hit release. this is 100% legal and 100% protected by law. I download an mp3. This is suddenly illegal? besides the MEDIUM use to hear and get the copy how is this ANY different than me hitting record over the radio? Logically it is not. YOU never have a "potential loss" of a sale by me downloading or offering for download mp3's. you DO NOT. YOUR LABEL if you had one does. this is the distinction that people do not understand and that the media and the labels INTENTIONALLY and ACTIVELY propagandize. File Sharing NEVER EVER EVER EVER hurts the artists. EVER. Period. File Sharing "could" potentially in the future (along with other technologies) ELIMINATE any need for a record label. Do you know how many CD's you would have to sell to make $1200 from a record label CD deal? 400,000 CD's. you would have to sell damned near half a million CD's to make the same $1200 you made in one night. CD's are $10 at walmart $15 on average. SO you would make $1200 from that 400k sales while the label would make $498,800 or damned near half a million dollars. and you wonder why the labels are suing. ? SO woodie. please provide me with ANY dictionary definition you can find (legit source please) that has a definition of STEALING that covers this. I have already show you the LEGAL definition that shows there is NO THEFT and NO STEALING here. but hey I am adventurous. Find me ONE SINGLE definition that agree's with YOU. I mean after all your pretty adamant about it "No question it is stealing" I question it. Provide one proof! The fundimental point comes down to this. NO ONE "deserves" a profit from their creations. They deserve CREDIT for their creations. NOW currently we live in a society that requires FINANCING to make creations and FINANCING to live eat sleep etc.. under that structure is stands to reason if you have to expend resources to make your creation logically it makes sense you have some right to recover resources in the distribution of your creations (physical forms) You do not have a copy right you have a copy priviledge that is limited and granted by the state. The state (in the beginning at least) recognize that the right of the PEOPLE ie SOCIETY in general to have access to information is GREATER than your right to protect information. Monopoly is illegal in this country. but it also recognizes that you need to eat to prosper so a compromise was formed. SO creators were granted TEMPORARY monopoly via copyright and patents and trademarks. this balances the right of society to have access and expand and the right of artists to SURVIVE and PROSPER from their hard work. what happens when there is no resources? what happens when anything you want is simply available? house food cd's instruments. What happens when all of that is nothing more than a command to a replicator away? there will be no NEED and therefore no more imperative right to "profit" since there will be NO MORE PROFIT. We are starting to see this with digital forms since WE CAN scan and replicate them JUST LIKE Picard's replicator making him earl gray tea in his ready room. and we are starting to see what will happen. The people will prosper but the POWERS that profit on the BACKS Of creators in this system of course BALK and RESIST. They want to retain their immoral stranglehold on the creators (you artists) Digital technologies make it so we no longer NEED THEM so of course they want to banish and outlaw them. and they want to DEMONIZE and brainwash people like woodie into seeing it as "theft" and "stealing" when no stealing or theft has occurred. clearly they are succeeding based on stupid lunatic court decisions like this one. an artist can sell me a CD for $6 and make 100-170 times more profit than they can with a label. that means they can sell 1/170th the amount of product and make the SAME profit as with a label. an artist can sell me an mp3 for 5 cents and make the same profit on that single mp3 as they can on an entire CD with a label. and now you know why the labels fight SOOOO hard against this. |
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| superduty5.9 | Nov 6 2010, 11:44 AM Post #15 |
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Metro Defender
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BS. This is so ridiculous to think it's stealing. The record companies want you to think it's stealing. These companies are loosing money. They tell you this is wrong. You do so they have done their job! It's distribution not stealing. How come nobody thinks it's stealing when you DVR or Tivo something? Because big companies sell this service and are making money. They are telling you it's ok. You do and they have done their job! |
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