Welcome to the all new Geo Metro Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are features you can't use and images you can't see. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: Join our community! |
| Thinking hypothetically about a Honda/Geo mashup | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 25 2010, 01:02 PM (1,311 Views) | |
| Jim-Bob | Nov 25 2010, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
|
Junkyard Engineer
![]()
|
For the last week or so I have had an idea that won't go away so I figured I will post it here for all to enjoy. The original Honda Insight ( the 2 seater) was the most aerodynamic thing sold in the US until that time, and may still hold that title. The car was made of aluminum and thus very light weight except for the batteries. However, today the battery packs on many of them are dead and not worth replacing due to low book values. I know some people swap in the Honda B series engines with a Hasport kit, but I had a different idea. Why not replace the hybrid drivetrain with a G10/5 speed? It would be far lighter when done and I doubt the finished car would weigh much more than a Metro. it could even be made smog legal as there is some cross over between the years of Metro and Insight production. When you were done, you would have a car with great aerodynamics, low weight, etc. that should be able to return amazing fuel economy without a lot of aero mods. Go through the G10 and do the right mods to it and you should have a car with similar performance to the stock hybrid.
Edited by Jim-Bob, Nov 25 2010, 01:03 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| HavsCritiria | Nov 25 2010, 01:12 PM Post #2 |
![]()
|
This is actually one of the few ideas I'm really liking, I think you should do it. I'll be following closely. |
![]() |
|
| metroschultz | Nov 25 2010, 01:16 PM Post #3 |
|
Please just call me; "Schultz"
![]()
|
I have had a similar idea, but with a CRX. If I could source an Insight, I would try it. Money is my big object right now. I'm broke. |
![]() |
|
| Jim-Bob | Nov 25 2010, 01:55 PM Post #4 |
|
Junkyard Engineer
![]()
|
Oh, believe me- money is very much an object! I deliver pizza, can't get more than 30 hours on the schedule and my delivery totals have dwindled down to nothing. I have ideas like this all the time and post the best ones to the internet in hopes that at least someone will get a chance to build it. If they do, I get to live vicariously though their success on my idea. Right now, I will be quite happy if I can get the title to the Metro, build my engine and 5 speed for it and use that for work. At least it will give me a bit of a cushion financially to try and weather the current economic storm. |
![]() |
|
| GeoStalker | Nov 25 2010, 07:37 PM Post #5 |
|
"Chicks dig me and guys think I'm cool."
![]()
|
ooooooh, I like it! Problem is....what would a "cheap" Insight body go for? The Insight already uses 3 cylinder technology for the fuel portion, correct? |
![]() |
|
| Jim-Bob | Nov 25 2010, 07:51 PM Post #6 |
|
Junkyard Engineer
![]()
|
I haven't checked yet, but I think it would be around $1500 as running and driving examples can be had for around $3500 if you shop around. As far as the engine goes, I think the stock one is a 4 cylinder. The problem lies in the drivetrain though. It doesn't use a conventional starter motor. Instead, the flywheel is essentially the stator in an electric motor which lets it do the whole stop-start thing seamlessly. It isn't easy to get that to work without the whole electrical shebang that comes with they hybrid system-including the battery pack. Remember that hybrid systems run at fairly high voltages-400+ if memory serves-, so just using a normal battery won't work to convert it to an engine-only car. Plus, the engine management scheme relies on the integration of the hybrid drive system to function properly. What I propose essentially does away with the stock engine management and some of the car's electrical system in order to make a normal car out of it. I think some of the gauges could be converted to work if the VSS signal could be synthesized in such a way that it works with the Honda speedo ( some VSS signals are square waveforms while others are sine waves and the two do not interchange!). It would be an engineering project as much as it would be a fabrication project, but in the end it would give you a cd that is around 0.1 better than the Metro. Remember too that the Insight got excellent mileage on the highway as well where the car was pure ICE. Plus, the insight didn't even use regenerative braking, so the brakes should work just fine without the hybrid. |
![]() |
|
| poorman1 | Nov 25 2010, 07:57 PM Post #7 |
![]()
|
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/fs-all-used-honda-insight-parts-sale-9320.html |
![]() |
|
| chads4dr | Nov 25 2010, 08:32 PM Post #8 |
![]()
|
It had a curb weight of 1850 to 1960 pounds and it did use regenative braking. Also it was powered by a 1 liter 3 cylinder engine with lean burn. We called them Honda "Insults" at auto school. The gasoline engine is a 67 hp (50 kW; 68 PS), 1-liter, ECA series 3-cylinder unit providing lean burn operation with an air-to-fuel ratio that can reach 25.8 to 1.[13] The electrical motor assist adds another 10 kW (13 hp) and a maximum of 25 pound-feet (33.9 Nm) of torque when called on. It also acts as a generator during deceleration and braking to recharge the vehicle's batteries, and as the Insight's starter motor.[14] (This both improves fuel efficiency and also extends the lifetime and fade resistance of the brakes, without adding unsprung weight). When the car is not moving, for example, at a stop light, the engine shuts off. The digital displays on the dashboard display fuel consumption instantaneously. On the manual transmission up and down arrows suggest when to shift gears. The Insight uses the first generation of Honda's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid technology. (The next generation, used in the Honda Civic Hybrid, is much more space-efficient.) The Insight has a 3-cylinder 1.0 L (61 cu in) engine and an ultrathin (about 2.5 inches) brushless 10-kW electric motor located on the crankshaft.[11] The engine utilizes lightweight aluminum, magnesium, and plastic to minimize weight.[14] Located behind the seats are a series of commercial grade "D" sized NiMH batteries wired to provide a nominal 144 V DC. During heavy acceleration, up to 100 amps are pulled from the NiMH batteries as the electric motor provides additional power; during deceleration, the motor acts as a generator and recharges the batteries using a process called regenerative braking, charging them with up to 50 Amps of current. A computer control module regulates how much power comes from the internal combustion engine, and how much from the electric motor; in the CVT variant, it also finds the optimal gear ratio. Dashboard gauges monitor the current battery status, instantaneous fuel consumption, and mode of the electric motor — standby, engine assist or charging the batteries. High pressure, low rolling resistance tires and the use of low viscosity "0W-20" synthetic oil both enhance fuel economy. The original Insight had a conventional manual transmission. Starting with the 2001 model, a CVT variant of the Insight was available; the CVT is similar to that used in the Honda Civic Hybrid and the Honda Logo. A feature shared by the two hybrids (and now appearing in others) is the ability to automatically turn off the engine when the vehicle is at a stop (and restart it upon movement). Since it is more powerful than most starters of conventional cars, the Insight's electric motor can start the engine nearly instantaneously. The Integrated Motor Assist is run by an "Intelligent Power Unit (IPU)", a desktop computer-sized box. The Intelligent Power Unit, the Power control Unit, the Electronic Control Unit, the vehicle's batteries, converter and a high-voltage inverter are all located under the cargo floor of the vehicle, behind the seats.[11] To maximize fuel efficiency, the Insight is very aerodynamic. It has a coefficient of drag of 0.25, one of the lowest of any marketed automobile. The Insight is available with a manual transmission or a continuously variable transmission. A traditional transmission shifts between a fixed set of engine-to-wheel ratios; however, a CVT allows for an infinite set of ratios between its lowest gear and its highest. The CVT-equipped Insight was classified as a super-low emissions vehicle.[15] The Insight features low emissions: the California Air Resources Board gave the 5-speed model a ULEV rating, and the CVT model earned a SULEV rating – 5-speed model charismatic lean-burn ability was a trade-off for increased efficiency at the expense of slightly higher NOx emissions. |
![]() |
|
| Jim-Bob | Nov 25 2010, 09:01 PM Post #9 |
|
Junkyard Engineer
![]()
|
Thanks! I had just read that a few minutes ago as I am stuck at work and decided to research it a bit more. ( The pizza place I deliver for is open for Thanksgiving, but I am able to suck wifi off the neighboring McDonalds to kill time while everyone else is playing Madden.) Now I wind up wondering if upgrading the stock hybrid system with more modern pieces would not be the better idea. not that i can afford any of this, but it is still a fun thought experiment. |
![]() |
|
| Coche Blanco | Nov 25 2010, 09:51 PM Post #10 |
|
Troll Certified
![]()
|
imho, the Honda engine is more efficient, and not that much heavier. If you're looking for a highway cruiser, it's the better bet. If you're looking for a cheap city cruiser, I doubt you can beat a metro. |
![]() |
|
| Jim-Bob | Nov 25 2010, 11:06 PM Post #11 |
|
Junkyard Engineer
![]()
|
This is a hypothetical for anyone who wants to brainstorm it. I have no intention of building it, just discussing it. I do that with a lot of ideas I have. Some get fleshed out enough to be written in my notebooks while others are forgotten without ever being written down. So, posting this topic is just for fun. Some people play video games, I run equations and research project car ideas. As it sits, I own the Metro because I feel it is the most cost effective solution to the pizza delivery car equation. I also plan to tweak the car to make it better suit my needs. For what it's worth, I agree on the Honda engine being better than the g10. If it would easily adapt to the Metro, I would even consider it as a swap candidate. Then again, it's hard enough to find the parts, funds and time to do the fairly basic build I am attempting with it now, so maybe I wouldn't. Edited by Jim-Bob, Nov 25 2010, 11:08 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| chads4dr | Nov 26 2010, 09:48 AM Post #12 |
![]()
|
According to Fueleconomy.gov the insight is better in the city and highway.... 48 City/60 Highway. A standard 5 speed metro is rated 38/44 and the XFI is rated 43/52. Since I know people are getting better mileage numbers than what EPA says I wonder if the same is true for the insight? |
![]() |
|
| Coche Blanco | Nov 26 2010, 10:17 AM Post #13 |
|
Troll Certified
![]()
|
It's also a hybrid. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · The Geo Metro Lounge · Next Topic » |


Welcome to the all new Geo Metro Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.






7:18 PM Jul 10