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Low compression - bad valve?; 1993 metro 2dr/hatch 1.0
Topic Started: Feb 16 2011, 06:33 PM (6,015 Views)
93metrochick
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Bad Bent
 
Most of us keep records on out gas mileage as an indicator of something going wrong. How many mile do you drive in two weeks?


No, unfortunately I don't. I know the benefits of keeping track of it, but I'm admittingly way too lazy & disorganized to keep up with that stuff. I did track it when I first got the car and know that I had gotten 52mpg highway miles. Thats including the overheating & major oil leak on the way home from that road trip. I had to have the front seal replaced when I got back. Since then I've swapped out the 12" rims & tires for 14" and I know there is some sort of math involved to figure the adjustment in odometer readings.... I saw a post on the forum here somewhere..... but again, my positive attributes just don't include that kind of organization or drive for "paper work". :lol

Bad Bent
 
Actually if you are checking your own oil you probably have the skills to repair your Geo. Seriously. You can rent a compression gauge at a parts shop and do the compression test yourself. Click on: How to Compression Test.

The other test for valves is to buy/rent a vacuum gauge, some rubber vacuum hose and a plastic "T" connector. There is a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor on the firewall that has a vacuum tube going to the engine the Gauge is "T'd" into the line at the Throttle Body. The engine is started and the vacuum should be 19" and steady. Any flutter is a valve, if you do not have any leaks. You do not have a carburetor. It's fuel injected (one injector).


Cool, thanks for this info. I'm gonna print this out and will look into it if the seafoam doesn't produce any miraculous results.

Bad Bent
 
What kind of oil are you using? Mobile 1, 10W30 has been recommended. A synthetic is good for mileage.


Well damn, all this time I've been using the 5W30 of Mobile 1 because thats what the guys at auto parts store told me when they looked it up for my car. I don't know what the 30 represents, but isn't the difference between 5 & 10 the thickness of the oil? I'm using Lucas additive with my oil, so does it still matter if I use the 5 or 10? Just curious.


Johnny Mullet
 
The garage can also order a redone head from 3Tech Performance (link on main page) and just charg labor to do rings and the head swap. It can all be done with the engine still in the car.


Or Johnny could do it if he didn't live so damn far! ;)


mcmancuso
 
It pours smoke right after you start it, but stops as soon as it burns out of the cylinders, maybe a minute at most.


Ok, thanks for that tid-bit. It's a beautiful day for a drive here in SC..... I think I might actually go do that in a few.

Edited by 93metrochick, Feb 19 2011, 10:59 AM.
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Woodie
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Mobil One 5W-30 is fantastic, I'd loose the Lucas treatment. The difference between the 5 and 10 is how thick it is when cold, a minor difference. 5W-30 is preferred, but either one should work.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

:gp

Stick with the 5W30, I was concerned that you were using a heavier 10W40 or even 20W50.

The "weight" has to do with viscosity and the 5 would be cold and the 30 "thicker" when at operating temperature, as Woodie says. :thumb
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Murf 59
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If your paying the bill. Ask your mech exactly what your #s were/are
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93metrochick
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Digging this old thread out of the dust, sorry guys.... but it IS mine. =P

Ok, I moved to a different state. Had to tow my Geo here (Clarksville TN) because I hadn't gotten the engine issue diagnosed until now. I have NO compression in cylinder #2. I have two leaking valves. Only one quote right now $701.29 includes a guesstimate from the machine shop, assuming there are only 2 bad valves. Could be more if there are more issues with the head. The machine shop portion of that price is about $150. I have seen rebuilt heads on eBay for about $250.

I called one other local shop so far to get price comparison and they said that they would not suggest doing this type of repair on a car with 193K miles on it because they said that the "bottom end would fall out" within a couple of days. They also said that you want to try to keep the same level of use on the engine. They are implying that I would be wasting my money with what they called a temporary fix.

Obviously, hearing the above scares me.... it would suck to sink $700 in my car only to have it be off the road again in a couple days. Any thoughts or suggestions? Also, anyone know of any decent mechanics experienced with Geo Metros in my area? I'm about an hour from Nashville, TN too.

Thanks!
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Coche Blanco
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"Bottom end fall out"? I've never heard that term when talking about a car...lol

My suggestion? Find a mechanic in TN. There are a couple good guys in Tennessee that can do the work for you, or at least guide you through it.

0 compression on number 2 is not a good sign...burned valves usually have at least a little pressure....

Last bit of info: Don't get jerked around for being a woman wanting car work done. I see it all the time...go in there with knowledge...walk out of there with your pride...don't hobble...get it?
Edited by Coche Blanco, Apr 19 2011, 01:43 PM.
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93metrochick
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Coche Blanco
Apr 19 2011, 01:34 PM
There are a couple good guys in Tennesse.

"Bottom end fall out"? I've never heard that term when talking about a car...lol

My suggestion? Find a mechanic in TN. There are a couple good guys in Tennessee that can do the work for you, or at least guide you through it.

0 compression on number 2 is not a good sign...burned valves usually have at least a little pressure....

Last bit of info: Don't get jerked around for being a woman wanting car work done. I see it all the time...go in there with knowledge...walk out of there with your pride...don't hobble...get it?

lol, ok. I'll keep that in mind. :D

Is there a list somewhere on this forum of Geo experienced mechanics/members? I thought I read someone saying there was?? I've been using the search option here, but I must not be using the right search terms.
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Coche Blanco
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There is...I can't find it right now either. lol How far are you willing to tow it?
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93metrochick
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Hmm, I don't know. Preferably within the same state (TN), but anyone within one of the surrounding states would be considered.
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93metrochick
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Found the list.... Sparta,NC looks like the closest to me, based on the list. If anyone knows of someone closer please post.

http://geometroforum.com/topic/1882063/1/
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mcmancuso
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I just moved from the Nashville area to Austin TX this winter :smackface could have helped with that rebuild. Personally, I'd grab a rebuild kit (~$250) 3 exhaust valves($5-10 each) and a good felpro head gasket(~$45), ~$300 in parts and do it myself :) And for that price it would also include a bottom end rebuild(bearings oil/water pump and rings). If I were going to be spending any time in TN anytime soon I'd offer to stop by for a weekend and take care of your rebuild, its really only a 2 day job once the engine is out. I'm not sure if there's any tech savvy members in the Nashville area, enginedocgeo is in Memphis, maybe drop him a line?
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93metrochick
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Thanks mcmancuso!
Where would I obtain this list of items for the prices you posted? It doesn't seem that your list includes a head, unless thats in the rebuilt kit you mentioned? I wasn't told that I needed a new one, but if I was going to be paying a machine shop $150 (if only two valves were bad) then I figured it was a safe bet to just go ahead and get a rebuilt one for $250 (ebay). With your suggestion, would I still need to obtain a machine shop for something? What is the $150 for if I (or the quoting mechanic) could do it?

I found a handy repair guide for head rebuilding here:
http://geometroforum.com/topic/638797/6/#new

I understand what your saying about doing the lower end as well. Unfortunately, if I'm paying someone to do the job I may not be able to afford the additional cost. It would be nice tho!
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mcmancuso
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Usually the head is fine, if the engine hasn't been overheated, and you just need a valve or two, all it needs is a good lapping on the new valves and cleaning of the lifters. The $150 would be for checking the head for straightness, cleaning, and lapping in the new valves. I paid a shop ~$75 a couple years ago for just checking a head for cracks and planing it since it was overheated.

The valves and rebuild kit are from ebay, the felpro head gasket was from advance auto (the ebay kit comes with a gasket but it wasn't very good so I bought a quality one)

Use this link to get a code to put in at checkout for $35 off a purchase of $85 or more at advance auto
This link: $35 off $85

rebuild kit here on sale for $233 with free shipping:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GEO-Metro-Pontiac-Firefly-1-0L-G10-Engine-Rebuild-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aGeoQ7cModelQ3aMetroQQhashZitem53e639848aQQitemZ360344814730QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

exhaust valve $5.20 each $8 shipping, but more than one doesn't increase shipping:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GEO-89-00-METRO-G10-L3-Exhaust-Valve-SZEVG10L-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem20b2a9c161QQitemZ140436423009QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Edited by mcmancuso, Apr 19 2011, 04:02 PM.
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93metrochick
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Sweeeet, thank you so much for the info. on where to get the parts and the savings.

Quick question about your "overheating" comment. I have not overheated the car recently... however, it HAS over heated a time or two since I've owned it. Are we to be concerned about ANY overheating at all?

As for a machine shop, I'm guessing I just check my local yellow pages and start calling them to get prices on.... what do I ask? Just checking the head for cracks and "planing" it (what is that exactly?). ?

As for the valves, if they are that cheap... instead of just purchasing 2 or 3, wouldn't it make sense to go ahead and replace all 6? This would be an easy removal & replace while in the midsts of the project.... right?

The auction for the rebuild kit says this in the description:
"Optional: If you want the oversize(s), please leave us a note in the Add Instructions to Seller box that PayPal provided when you go to check out with PayPal." I'm not sure what this is referring to, but do I need to ask about "over size" for this project?

The felpro gasket is only $48.99 (part number 9651PT), is this the gasket you were talking about? There are others made by the same brand, high performance, etc. for about the same price, does it matter?

Is this the only gasket that I need to worry about that is included in the rebuild kit from eBay? All other gaskets are good?

Now, since the gasket is under the minimum purchase price to use the coupon, what other items do I need to have on my purchase list for this project that I might be able to get from Advance to utilize the great savings included in the link you provided?


I know, lots of questions. Hope your the patient type. =)
Edited by 93metrochick, Apr 19 2011, 04:51 PM.
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allmountain40
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Clarksville TN huh? You in the military? I was stationed there 25 years ago. I don't know how much it has changed, but I wouldn't let anyone there touch my car, nothing but scumbags taking military guys to the cleaners. If your gonna have it done by a mechanic, take it as far away from post as you can to get a fair price. I spent a good amount of my time at Fort Campbell working on cars for people because the local businesses prey on the military. have you tried to contact enginedocgeo? I know hes helped other members out, and he knows what he is doing. Overheating can warp the head, so be sure to check that it is flat. It may need to be resurfaced if you got it too hot. The second shop you contacted gave you good advice. If you rebuild the head, it will bump your compression up and your old worn out rings may not be able to handle the pressure and start blowing oil by. You should re-ring it or else you run a fairly high risk of having to have it torn down again to do the bottom end. Oversize rings are if you have the block bored oversize, and oversize bearings are if you have the crank turned. If you are going to take your block in to get worked, they may have to bore it if the cylinders are too messed up. they would tell you what size they bored it to and you could order the propper rings. Same with the bearings. If the crank journals are scarred, they may have to turn it down and would tell you what size bearings you need. Valves are cheap, so you might as well replace them all. Planing the head means to machine the surface of the head that mates to the block flat so that it seals propperly. Have the machine shop check head for flatness, and to do a valve job. you do not need a pressure test because you already know the valves are bed, so do not pay for one. If you are going to have the block done, ask them to boil it out, and check the bores. tell them you want the cylinders honed. Ask them to call you if they need to bore them. This should only be required if they are oversize or out of round. Ask them for the measurements. These cylinders are pretty tough and usually only require a hone. As for the crank, that should only need turned if you threw a rod or something. ask them to mike it to make sure it is fine. Again, if they say it is bad, ask them for the measurements. If you have a haynes or chilton manual you can look up these measurements to know if they are b.s.ing you. I hope this answers your questions. Please feel free to ask away, we don't mind helping. :thumb
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