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| Burning Coolant After New Head Gasket | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 20 2011, 08:26 PM (4,104 Views) | |
| JohnDN | Apr 20 2011, 08:26 PM Post #1 |
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Recently I discovered I had a burnt exhaust valve and replaced that. While the head was off, I had Napa mill the head down 0.031". Tonight, I got the engine all back together and started it up, and there is a huge coolant leak. The engine is burning coolant and large amounts are also mixing with the oil. I used a new head gasket of course. I can't see it being the head gasket. It was a generic head gasket, not a FelPro, but it seemed to be of good quality and it had the "rubber-like" coating to help seal against leaks. Two potential problems I see. I reused the old head bolts. I know they are torque to yield bolts, and should be replaced. Can the use of the old bolts cause a leak this large? The other potential problem is that the surface of the head after Napa had milled it was not smooth like they come from the factor. It wasn't a rough finish, but you could see the little grooves in it. How smooth should a head be after it is milled? I don't have a picture of it, but if I take the head back off I'll get a picture. I'm wondering if Napa didn't do the job right and all those little grooves are letting coolant flow through them. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I need my car back
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| Deleted User | Apr 20 2011, 08:32 PM Post #2 |
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John, every mill job on a head I've ever seen is smooth as a babies butt. I'm not so sure it could be the head bolts. I have re-used them several times. Could be, though, and when in doubt, get another set. Also, is there a "real" head shop in your area? You might want to consult with them about the quality of the NAPA job. Also, was 0.031" your idea, or theirs? You might be screwed for material if you have to re-mill. Did you install the head gasket the right way? An of course, |
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| JohnDN | Apr 20 2011, 08:38 PM Post #3 |
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I was wanting to raise compression to a little more than 10:1. so it was my idea to mill it 0.031". There's not an actual head shop in my area. There is one about 30 minutes south where I go to college, I could check there sometime and see what they have to say about it. It definitely wasn't as smooth as a baby's bottom though. I have a feeling its the surface finish Napa used that is causing problems. If so I hope they will be stand up guys and take care of the problems, and not try to make me pay for them to correct their mistake. |
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| 96Geoman | Apr 20 2011, 08:46 PM Post #4 |
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Did you torque the head bolts in the proper sequence? Take a straight edge and place it across the milled surface of the head. It should be flat. Edited by 96Geoman, Apr 20 2011, 08:51 PM.
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| JohnDN | Apr 20 2011, 08:49 PM Post #5 |
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Yea, I made sure to torque them in the proper sequence. I torqued them to 54 ft-lbs. After I noticed the coolant leak (the engine was operating temperature), I let it cool down, rechecked the torque. It was still 54 ft-lbs., so I bumped it up to 64 ft-lbs. just to compress the gasket a tiny bit more, but the coolant leak was still there after that. |
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| Memphis metro | Apr 20 2011, 09:22 PM Post #6 |
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Always a pretty good idea to spray head gaskets with K@W copper coat for better sealing. Sorry for your troubles. I would pull the plugs out and see which cylinder is wet. If indeed that is your problem. Then perform a coolant pressure test and see if that give me any other ideas where the coolant is going. |
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| JohnDN | Apr 20 2011, 09:35 PM Post #7 |
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I took the plugs out and shined a flashlight down in the cylinders. (They were brand new NGK plugs by the way.) Cylinder #1: Spark plug white. Cylinder dry. Cylinder #2: Spark plug slightly tan. Cylinder wet. Cylinder #3: Spark plug black, sooty. Cylinder very wet. I can do a coolant pressure test tomorrow. Maybe I can here where it is leaking from with that. |
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| 92blumetro | Apr 20 2011, 09:40 PM Post #8 |
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jack of all trades, master of two
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you can easily remove .40 thou from the head without issues. did they check it for cracks/porosity?flatness? checked your block with a square/feeler gauge?....poor headgasket? should be a mirror finish(smooth as glass) |
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| JohnDN | Apr 20 2011, 09:47 PM Post #9 |
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I don't believe the checked it for porosity or flatness> The block should be fine, I haven't checked it. But the car has never overheated since it's been in my position, and it had never used coolant before I took the head off. So far everyone has said a pretty much perfectly smooth surface, this surface definately wasn't perfectly smooth. I'll get the cylinder head off and take it up to napa and complain. I shouldn't have walked out with the cylinder head like that, I had a bad feeling, but it was my first time having any head work done. I knew if Metros used the MLS style headgasket, that finish wouldn't cut it whatsoever, but I wasn't sure if it was tolerable with the traditional type of head gasket. I guess not. |
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| 96Geoman | Apr 20 2011, 11:20 PM Post #10 |
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At this point, I would suggest that you use new head bolts. 3Tech sells new bolts that are reusable. I would recommend chasing the head bolt threads in the block to clean out any garbage. Also, Fel-Pro makes a high performance head gasket... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GEO-METRO-HIGH-PREFORMANCE-HEAD-GASKETS-NO-BLOW-89-00-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f09236396QQitemZ270736253846QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories |
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| Rooy | Apr 21 2011, 12:00 AM Post #11 |
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I don't think the surface finish is going to be the problem. As you said, it's MLS head gaskets that need a very smooth finish, but that's not necessary or even ideal for traditional graphite gaskets. It should have a bit of a tooth to it. From how you described the finish, it sounds normal. Here's a nice comparison pic showing a somewhat "rough" and a smooth finish: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19253&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=a8c167669616028ce36f57aaf9691446 |
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| JohnDN | Apr 21 2011, 01:14 PM Post #12 |
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Here are the pictures of my head, its similar to the rough one shown in your picture Rooy. There are several pictures so here is the link to the album instead of having a huge post with a lot of large pictures. http://s339.photobucket.com/albums/n441/tremorfalcon/Geo%20Metro/ |
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| savageoner | Apr 21 2011, 08:25 PM Post #13 |
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(hopefully I didn't overlook this in earlier posts) Did you torque the head bolts straight to 54 ft lbs? Or did you used increments starting around 20 ft lbs, and increasing by 10 or 15 lbs each sequence? The milling on the head looks like it would seal just fine in my opinion. Assuming it's not a defective head gasket and the head bolts were torqued correctly, it's possible that the deck of the block isn't straight enough to seal with a new gasket. If it warped naturally it may have been such a slow progression that the old gasket formed to it. That is purely speculation though. The machine shop that did all of my machine work, pointed out that engine blocks with cylinders similar to our engines, are prone to warping and just generally moving around. |
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| JohnDN | Apr 21 2011, 08:49 PM Post #14 |
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I took the head to a different Napa and the machinist there said it didn't look like the RA (roughness average) was as low as theirs normally is but that it shouldn't give me any problems. I also took it to Lockwood Performance. This is an actual performance store that does everything from machine work for the DIYer to building full out race cars. Bruce, the owner, took a look at it and said the RA looked ok and that shouldn't be the source of my coolant leaks. savageoner, I screwed the head bolts in with a ratchet until they were just slightly tight, then I torqued them straight to 54 ft-lbs. Then after one heat cycle of the engine, I rechecked the torque and torqued them down a little tighter to 64 ft-lbs. I'll try to find the straightest edge I can tomorrow and try to check the flatness of the head and block both. If those both check out, a few things I plan on doing with the next head gasket are using the copper coating spray on it and torquing the head bolts down in increments. |
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| chubart | Apr 21 2011, 09:10 PM Post #15 |
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I know this is apples and oranges, but did you consider using a sealant on the head gasket? That's what stopped my leak on the water pump I installed. Good luck
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