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| monster turbo3 build | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 17 2011, 05:53 AM (36,550 Views) | |
| nerys | Jun 23 2011, 12:21 PM Post #31 |
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Grr
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so what is the cheapest way I can get 100hp our of a 3cyl engine? I am making serious inroads to possibly putting a geo drive train in my minivan. I fear however it will be too underpowered on anything but flat roadways. IE first hill I think I will not be able to climb it. a turbo however would add enough power to manage the rare climb I might have to make. suggestions on cheapest way to do that? I don't need all the power you have JUST enough to be able to grand ma around a 3200 pound mini van. |
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| Woodie | Jun 24 2011, 04:19 AM Post #32 |
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Nitrous? |
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| Coche Blanco | Jun 24 2011, 05:18 AM Post #33 |
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Troll Certified
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Nitrous is probably the cheapest. Turbo is probably the best route though. I would shy away from nitrous as you'd have to spray for an entire hill and that would drain a tank pretty fast. |
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| t3ragtop | Jun 25 2011, 06:55 AM Post #34 |
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker
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to answer a few questions, i used some very serious thermal management techniques to let the little 3 banger shed heat. the liquid to air intercooling system was engineered to hold intake air temps to around 100 degrees f. the megasquirt looks at the iat and dials out ignition timing as temps go up. to maintain power levels, the intercooling is oversized by a factor of 3. the turbo is covered by a thermal blanket which is good for 2500 degrees f. that will keep heat in the housing and hot side to maximize flow velocity and at the same time, keep heat off the charge air piping and heat exchangers. i used a remote oil filter and another heat exchanger for that system which doubled the capacity of sump oil and will shed internal heat from the engine. i'm not really worried about the connecting rods and pistons. the stock internals of the turbo3 are different from the normally aspirated g10. the t3 uses the same rods as the g13 twincam and the piston design is considerably different than the n/a g10. the turbo3 does have a few quirks, though, and the pistons will lock the rings and break the ring lands, melt piston crowns, and snap piston skirts if tuning is bad. the lesson there is to maintain safe fire deck temperatures and never let the fueling go lean. 226 hp is the theoretical output based on available fuel and boost pressure. i'm not confident that i will actually make that power. the experts i rely on point out limitations in the intake manifold design and flow characteristics of the head. i am very confident that i'll be able to tune for 140 - 150 hp at the wheels with a margin of safety. a general rule of thumb for turbocharging is that you gain 10 hp for every psi of boost that you add over the stock design. the factory turbo3 is rated around 96 hp at 7.5 psi of boost. again, theoretically, an additional 13 psi would add 130 hp and that calculation also yields exactly 226 hp. when i pulled the stockish turbo3 i have run without trouble for the last 5 seasons, i pulled it complete with wiring, controls, and 4.39 transmission. it is a drop in, plug and chug replacement for a mk2 car that includes everything down to the cyberdyne digital narrow band afr and vacuum/ boost gauges and hood with the installed top mounted i/c scoop. i have the option of finding a suitable car to swap out to a turbo3 or i will sell the "kit" to someone who wants to go to the dark side. i'd be looking for $1600 for the whole shebang - running, road tested, and ready for a weekend drop in conversion. nerys, the only 3 banger drive train i would consider as a swap to your minivan would be the turbo3. it produces twice the hp and torque of the normally aspirated g10 without mods or nitrous oxide. it also has the larger clutch assembly - everything in the same sized package as the n/a g10. the g10t is an engine that just makes you smile. every morning on my commute i would start into the uphill grades on a highway i use and the boost would start to come up and i would actually gain speed going up the hill. the turbo engine never even breaks a sweat and it doesn't start to slow down like my normally aspirated g10 cars. the turbo sort of self regulates and without even changing the throttle angle, boost ramps up and the car charges right up the grade. i've been keeping right at the project even though i've battled rain showers all week. the wiring is down to about 30 wires, mostly from the megasquirt controller now. as soon as i get a dry day i'll haul the mig welder out and fabricate the stainless steel 2 1/2" exhaust and get it mounted. it will use fabricated mandrel bends and high flow catalytic converter and muffler. i'm using v-band clamps, a 2" at the turbo down pipe outlet and a 2 1/2" where the 2" pipe expands just past the turbine tech lower 4 point brace and sway bar and the larger pipe runs to the rear of the car. with the car pretty much re-assembled, the front end is sweet looking. all the new lights are absolutely crystal clear and spakle like diamonds. i enameled the geo badge on the hood in red. 91 ragtop, ken, sent me a section of floor pan so that i can replace my driver's side floor where it got soft and finally rotted out. that will add a weekend to the project but i'll also blow in rustproofing to all those channels in the double floor pan and rocker voids. the entire pan will get coated with por15 and covered with aluminized heat/ sound deadener and finished up with new carpeting. |
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| compjake | Jun 25 2011, 08:15 AM Post #35 |
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Mostest Elitest Member
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I'm keeping a real close eye on this, you have done everything I wanted to do to my Geo but I wish to run 25psi. I want to see lots more pics and video to, if you can
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| nerys | Jun 26 2011, 01:43 AM Post #36 |
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Grr
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I wish I could man but I simply don't have that kind of cash :-( not unless a turbo sprint falls in my lap off craigslist or something :-) |
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| Jezza | Jun 26 2011, 02:53 AM Post #37 |
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Boost Junkie
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And I finally find this thread You sir are where I want to be!! I love your setup and management of the entire thing - the netbook idea is soooo sick!!! So JEALOUS right now!!! I want to use the GReddy Emanage Ultimate or Megasquirt 3 for my management on my turbo build when I start... I also plan to plumb in an extra injector to the intake mani for the extra fuel and engage it when on boost. Choice of turbo: I might use a Toyota CT12. A question: Will the head from the Turbo3 bolt up to the N/A G10 block?? It might be the next best thing to sourcing the turbo3 engine for you guys ... For others who are interested in going boost, you can safely run up to 9 psi boost on your G10 with stock internals, tuned. Thats what I want to do. 100hp is good enough for me with an economy tune. OK lemme quit chattering now. |
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| Jezza | Jun 26 2011, 03:08 AM Post #38 |
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Boost Junkie
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Wow thats a lot of boost son!! You must have plans for: Water/meth injection, forged pistons and rods, upgraded bolts, sleeved block(??) strengthened gearbox, bigger injectors and fuel pump, SAFM and lots of other goodies I cant bother to list ... |
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| compjake | Jun 26 2011, 12:24 PM Post #39 |
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Mostest Elitest Member
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Im not 100% sure of the details since I haven't started on the project yet but I was going port\polish the head, APR head studs and stock everything else (besides adding fuel and a megasquirt) My biggest issue will be the intake temps, if i can keep them low enough the block might actually stay together for more 1 run lol |
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| t3ragtop | Jun 26 2011, 01:27 PM Post #40 |
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker
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there's a teamswift member in canada who runs 30 pounds of boost on his turbo3 but he has a bunch of supporting mods. the mk2 turbo3 head will bolt right onto any g10 block, it's the noodley connecting rods on the normally aspirated engines that are the problem. i'm not confident that those rods will handle 9 psi. i know for sure that the tbi won't supply sufficient fuel to support 9 psi nor will the stock n/a fuel pump. as much as i like all the features of the ms3, it's way overkill for the 3 banger. the ms3 is set up for v8 engines. the ms2 version 3 board is the sweet spot for the turbo3. i have everything i need with that ms controller including anti-knock via a knocksense unit. although my current build uses batch fire for the injectors, i have room to expand to sequential injection even though bowling and grippo, the originators of megasquirt, don't give it much credit as a useful performance feature. sequential injection is pretty much an efficiency tool that provides some functional benefit at idle and for taming way oversized injectors. i guess that if you needed some huge fuel capacity at high boost pressures and you wanted to completely re-design the fuel supply system and fuel rail to support 600cc/min injectors, you'd have to go sequential to dial the injector pulsewidth low enough to get the engine to idle correctly. as a matter of fact, before i was finished with the engineering for my current build i was doing the engineering work for sequential injection. i'm halfway through building a big bore fuel rail with a fuel pressure regulator capable of the flow. i'm also sitting on a new set of polished stainless steel fuel pipes which has a supply line with a 3/8" id, also to handle the larger flow. at that point i would have to modify the fuel pickup to move the pump, a big bore inline unit, outside of the tank. i spec'd a nice little hall effect device about the size of a half of a stick of gum and i'll bore a hole in the camshaft pulley, indexed to the right spot, and epoxy a cylindrical neodymium magnet in there to trigger the hall effect device acting as a camshaft angle sensor. then all i have to do is add 3 big mosfets to fire the injectors and load new code. turbine tech has been selling redesigned turbo3 intake manifolds with bigger throttle bodies and plenums and better flow characteristics. all that would be yet another wallet full of cash. if i get a buyer for my stock turbo3 drop in system kit for a mk2 chassis i might jump right into the next phase. |
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| compjake | Jun 26 2011, 01:35 PM Post #41 |
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Mostest Elitest Member
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Really now? I was told by 3tech that using the temp sensor mod and a larger fuel pump would be enough to handle 25+psi boost and that the stock bottom end wouldn't be an issue either.
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| t3ragtop | Jun 26 2011, 02:17 PM Post #42 |
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker
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mike cove would know, he built a blown thru turbo charged land speed record engine. if mike says it, i'd tend to believe it. 6 years ago, i started out building a hybrid block turbo3 and had one problem after the next. i started over with a turbo3 g10t engine and had nothing but success from there forward. you know that it's mostly about the tuning. if you do stupid things with fuel and ignition, the engine will melt. boost is another evil. the more pressure you run, the hotter the the charge air becomes through heat of compression. the hotter the charges air is, the less ignition advance the engine can sustain. hotter charge air means more chance of pre-ignition, more pre-ignition means sudden mechanical failure. i had to find intercooling that was more efficient than air to air to be able to build for 21 psi without the charge air temps (actually, that translate to iat - intake air temp) causing tuning problems. water to air intercooling equals $1000, more or less. in my opinion, you could do a light pressure boost re-fit to n/a g10 without too much trouble, something around 4 psi. anything over that and you'd run into serious fueling problems. that seems to have been the demise of most of the junk yard makeovers i've read about, no matter how nicely they were done. |
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| cris | Jun 26 2011, 04:20 PM Post #43 |
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New Member
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thats beautiful work. ive seen a metro on local craigslist a few weeks back with a v6 swap and RWD conversion and automatic tranny.. they were asking $3500. they claimed 250 crank hp with no mods to the engine itself. dont remember what the donor car was or any other details. but i remember thinking. what a waste. im sure it would be fast, but the fuel economy would be terrible no matter how youd drive it. in your case though. you have the best of both worlds. fast when you need it. and fuel efficient when you dont. i wonder what kind of quarter mile times it can put down. guessing low to mid 15s? |
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| nerys | Jun 26 2011, 09:30 PM Post #44 |
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Grr
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so whats the cheapest path to get that 4psi ? |
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| Alpine | Jun 27 2011, 02:10 AM Post #45 |
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1020cc G10 GOML
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wish i was closer id buy that up |
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