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monster turbo3 build
Topic Started: Jun 17 2011, 05:53 AM (36,549 Views)
Jezza
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Boost Junkie

nerys
Jun 26 2011, 09:30 PM
so whats the cheapest path to get that 4psi ?
Cheapest path would be to buy a small turbo (like a Toyota CT9) and have an external wastegate with a spring modded to 4psi ... that way you can protect your engine, still have boost at your disposal and get fairly decent mileage. Dont think you would even need an intercooler at that boost pressure either so thats savings.

List:

Turbo
Turbo mani & down pipe
Wastegate
BOV
Piping
Oil lines
T Timer
Gauges (oil, boost, A/F)
Intercooler (op)
Turbo hat

Done!!
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Woodie
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compjake
Jun 26 2011, 01:35 PM
t3ragtop
Jun 26 2011, 01:27 PM
i know for sure that the tbi won't supply sufficient fuel to support 9 psi nor will the stock n/a fuel pump.
Really now? I was told by 3tech that using the temp sensor mod and a larger fuel pump would be enough to handle 25+psi boost and that the stock bottom end wouldn't be an issue either. :hmm
I find that very hard to believe, I think you misunderstood him. 25 PSI is a monstrous amount of boost, you're talking hand grenade type levels.

Quote:
 
in my opinion, you could do a light pressure boost re-fit to n/a g10 without too much trouble, something around 4 psi. anything over that and you'd run into serious fueling problems.


This is more likely, the stock G10T can be wastegate shimmed with a bigger fuel pump and temp sensor hack to take 10 psi. 25 psi is one full atmosphere above that.
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z34-5speed
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Formerly "Tech Certified"

cris
Jun 26 2011, 04:20 PM
thats beautiful work. ive seen a metro on local craigslist a few weeks back with a v6 swap and RWD conversion and automatic tranny.. they were asking $3500. they claimed 250 crank hp with no mods to the engine itself. dont remember what the donor car was or any other details. but i remember thinking. what a waste. im sure it would be fast, but the fuel economy would be terrible no matter how youd drive it. in your case though. you have the best of both worlds. fast when you need it. and fuel efficient when you dont.

i wonder what kind of quarter mile times it can put down. guessing low to mid 15s?
Hell NO!!!

That car had some ancient Buick V6 (i believe) that couldn't have made any more than 120hp at the crank. Plus it had some horrible looking body kit on it.

Even though it is in a Metro it would still get bad mileage based on just the engine being terrible.

Kyle
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compjake
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Woodie
Jun 27 2011, 06:40 AM
compjake
Jun 26 2011, 01:35 PM
t3ragtop
Jun 26 2011, 01:27 PM
i know for sure that the tbi won't supply sufficient fuel to support 9 psi nor will the stock n/a fuel pump.
Really now? I was told by 3tech that using the temp sensor mod and a larger fuel pump would be enough to handle 25+psi boost and that the stock bottom end wouldn't be an issue either. :hmm
I find that very hard to believe, I think you misunderstood him. 25 PSI is a monstrous amount of boost, you're talking hand grenade type levels.
I wish I still had the PM's to prove it, hopefully Mike will chime in and set the record straight.
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compjake
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z34-5speed
Jun 27 2011, 09:37 AM
cris
Jun 26 2011, 04:20 PM
thats beautiful work. ive seen a metro on local craigslist a few weeks back with a v6 swap and RWD conversion and automatic tranny.. they were asking $3500. they claimed 250 crank hp with no mods to the engine itself. dont remember what the donor car was or any other details. but i remember thinking. what a waste. im sure it would be fast, but the fuel economy would be terrible no matter how youd drive it. in your case though. you have the best of both worlds. fast when you need it. and fuel efficient when you dont.

i wonder what kind of quarter mile times it can put down. guessing low to mid 15s?
Hell NO!!!

That car had some ancient Buick V6 (i believe) that couldn't have made any more than 120hp at the crank. Plus it had some horrible looking body kit on it.

Even though it is in a Metro it would still get bad mileage based on just the engine being terrible.

Kyle
Your right, it was a Buick v6 (I remember seeing the youtube videos) I believe the engine was pulled out of a early 90's Le-saber.
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Jezza
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Boost Junkie

compjake
Jun 27 2011, 08:10 PM
Woodie
Jun 27 2011, 06:40 AM
compjake
Jun 26 2011, 01:35 PM
t3ragtop
Jun 26 2011, 01:27 PM
i know for sure that the tbi won't supply sufficient fuel to support 9 psi nor will the stock n/a fuel pump.
Really now? I was told by 3tech that using the temp sensor mod and a larger fuel pump would be enough to handle 25+psi boost and that the stock bottom end wouldn't be an issue either. :hmm
I find that very hard to believe, I think you misunderstood him. 25 PSI is a monstrous amount of boost, you're talking hand grenade type levels.
I wish I still had the PM's to prove it, hopefully Mike will chime in and set the record straight.
Comp you CANNOT and I repeat CANNOT run 25 psi of boost on a stock G10 motor!! If you understood how boost works you would know why I say this. The STOCK boost on a WRX Sti is 14.7 psi (1 bar) and that is a factory boosted motor. 22 psi on that engine is pushing it. Anything above that would require some SERIOUS MODS for it to be driveable.

So imagine 25 psi on a Metro engine. :die :x Even if it were possible you would need some SERIOUS mods for it not to blow up much less be driveable.

Maybe Mike has a T3 motor and 25 psi on that is still too much for that motor without some heavy mods.
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Alpine
1020cc G10 GOML

how come i have read so much over at TS that the n/a rods will hold up stock turbo +
Edited by Alpine, Jun 28 2011, 02:56 AM.
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

i prefer to comment only on what i have actually done or tried to do and failed.

i have personally bolted a turbo3 head with all it's stuff and an ihi rhb32, the factory turbo set at 7.5 psi boost pressure, onto a stock n/a block. i blew it to kingdom come without even trying. i may have gotten 7 pounds out of it a couple of times before it chucked a rod. and that was supplying sufficient fuel via the 3 turbo3 injectors.

the next problem i had was trying make the next n/a hybrid turbo3 engine run acceptably. the 9.1:1 base compression seemed to upset the turbo3 system and i could never get the vaf to operate decently.

i gave all that up and started fresh with a real turbo3 engine - 8.5:1 base compression, the same connecting rods as the swift gt twincam engine (stout little boogers,) and the complete stock control set. i had some super fun learning with that setup. a fubar'd several rhb32b turbos by trying to make them run high boost. my opinion? the shafts on the tiny turbos are too fragile to handle 25,000 rpms and be staggered by the reverse pulse that comes off the throttle plate when it snaps closed between shifts.

the factory turbo3 system is fine to about 10 psi with the clt mod, a little higher when you use the cold start injector to fog the intake manifold at wot.

again, i'm not telling tales out of school - i have actually played with the stuff for 5 or 6 years. i might not have the same luck, results, or opinions as turbof1y but we're generally on the same page and respect each other. that being the case, i won't get stuck in a shooting match over what he said to whom. nor will i be contradicting him in any way. he has a long history with these engines and more experience with them. i'm a relative nOOb having only pissed with them for about 6 years.
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

i've kept busy with lots of little things on the project. really, i haven't slacked off. :D

i got the oil temperature sensor mounted on the remote oil filter block next to the oil pressure transducer - ready to run gauge wiring. i have been considering my exhaust system and in preparation i swapped my lower 4 point suspension brace from the vintage "murr's" brace to an aluminum turbine tech brace. i added stainless steel hardware to my list to replace the oem nuts and bolts for those suspension points.

last night i started slicing the 2" 409 alloy stainless mandrel bends to rough in the front pipe from the turbo outlet and back past the sway bar where the pipe will expand to 2 1/2" 409 alloy tubing. i'm using v-band joints in the pipe to make it easier to deal with mounting (or removing) the exhaust system. the turbo outlet/ down pipe has a 2" v-band joint, then the re-assembled sections of a mandrel 90 and a mandrel 45 get me lined up to clear the tie bar, sway bar, and line up with the tunnel in the floor pan so i can squeeze in the 2 1/2" pipe without interfering with the shifter. (yeah, that ring gear inspection cover is chrome plated. ^o) )
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after the straight run of 2" shoots under the oil pan at the side of the transmission, i located a 2" high flow catalytic converter with an o2 bung just under the factory exhaust hanger. i'm using pre-bent 3/8" stainless round stock from the top and side of the cat to secure to the oem rubber exhaust mounting donut. the o2 sensor is positioned just forward of the firewall. off the back of the cat there is a short straight pipe, a stainless 2" to 2 1/2" flare, and the front pipe is terminated with a 2 1/2" v-band flange.
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as soon as my 2" stainless flex pipe gets here i'll cut out the straight run of pipe just ahead of the cat and replace it with the flex joint. i don't think i'll get much movement from the engine because it's hung in solid polyurethane motor mounts. still, if it does wiggle a little, the flex pipe will allow the motion without breaking anything.

it's hard to get a good shot without the perspective being skewed when you have only 12" under the car and you're rolling around on the asphalt driveway. :P here's how the rear end of the front pipe lines up in the floor pan tunnel.
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tomorrow, if it's not raining in the evening, i'll start running the 2 1/2" pipe in the 2nd section of the exhaust. that ought to go quicker because it's a long straight piece of pipe, a bend of just shy of 90 degrees, a shorter section of pipe that runs across to the right side, and another mandrel bend of not quite 90 degrees that kicks up 45 degrees where the third piece of the system arches over the rear suspension.
Edited by t3ragtop, Jun 30 2011, 11:43 PM.
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

i got up this morning at 6 am (a half hour later than i get up on a workday) only to find it raining like a cow pissing on a flat rock. i switched to plan b which was to arrange to hook up with chads4dr to pick up some turbine tech aluminum upper strut braces. i caught up with chad and we chatted for an hour and a half about my project and his new project, a last year fiero. i'm sad about him losing his metro and folding on his project. just to let you guys know, he seems to be doing great with a new job that he likes and his new car project.

when i got back to the house it had stopped raining so i hauled out the welder and got busy on the exhaust fabrication, this time working on the 2 1/2" intermediate pipe from the front sway bar to the right rear suspension. the pic shows the straight run of pipe that sits up in the floor pan center tunnel. you can also see the braces i picked up from chad.
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you can see how the big pipe tucks up in the center tunnel and the hanger i bent up out of stainless round stock.
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i cut the end of the straight run at the rear to length and cut a mandrel bend to 73 degrees to line up with the lateral floor pan tunnel that runs from the center to the right side.
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i cut the second bend out of mandrel section, also a 73 degree turn, and a straight pipe to line up the shot through the rear suspension jungle.
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now the intermediate pipe is finished except for the second v-band joint for the rear pipe and muffler. here's how it lines up for that last run of pipe.
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tomorrow, floor pan repairs so i'll still be welding. ^o)
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Scoobs
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:D

Thats stainless exaust aint it, what type of welding rods did you use, if you used a stick welder? regular steel like from a wire feed welder will rust, Maybe use Nickel rods like ive done, that would keep it from rusting. Plus it would hold up to the heat better
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

yeah, most of the components are 409 stainless alloy. the muffler, the v-band joints, and the 2" to 2.5" adapter are 316 stainless (and polished.)

i used .035 stainless steel welding wire and co2/argon shield gas in my 110 amp mig welder. i'm not really an expert welder but did a bit of welding every workday for about 17 years although i have been out of that job for around 7 years. it's like riding a bike, you never really forget how to get it done but it takes a little practice to get back into the groove.

the weldments on the stainless tube were nice and hot. i got great penetration and you can see the inside of the pipe in some shots to verify that.

409 alloy isn't impervious to oxidation, especially at the welds, so i'll brush a cold galvanizing coating over the beads when i'm done with the fabrication. actually, stainless steel is more apt to be subject to heat stress micro-fracturing and stress crack corrosion from thermal cycling than mild steel. still, it outlasts mild steel in use by a factor of 5 times and the emissivity of stainless is very low so it's more effective at maintaining gas temperatures and, thus, gas velocity without having to use a thermal wrap.

today i'll change the wire spool back to .028 mild steel and dial back on the heat to weld the thinner steel of the floor pan. i've had my little wire feed welder since the early 90s and i've gotten my money out of it several times over. it's good for up to about 1/4" if you grind a vee into the edges and lay in a good root weld with another 2 passes on top of that. it's the absolute whip for thin steel, though. i have an old lincoln "tombstone" for stick welding and no matter how low i set the current on it, it blows holes in thin, slightly rusted sheet steel so i rarely use it for anything under 12 gauge steel, mostly frame rail weldments. the wire feed mig, unlike a stick welder, leaves nice, flux free beads and you don't have to chip and wire brush them after the weld cools. also, mig welds don't have the same problems with porousity or flux embedded within the weldment that you get with flux coated electrodes.

like i said, i am by no means an expert welder but i was originally taught by probably the best welder in the world at the time at battelle memorial institute. that old guy founded the edison welding institute that trains the best welders. he was not only a welder but a fully credentialed metallurgist so he knew exactly what electrode alloy and procedure to use for any metal joining application. i got the quick and dirty training but he was a consultant to the big names in the welding industry. i worked with him on robotic welding technology developed for the alaskan pipeline project back in the early 80s.

my break is over. i'm heading back out into the sun to soldier on. :)
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

today i worked on repairing the driver's side floor. last year it had a hole. i parked the car for the winter and this spring i almost had no floor! it's amazing how thin the steel is, the factory under coating is 3 times as thick as the steel.

91 ragtop, ken, sent me a floor section from montana that was really clean. i cut the rusted floor pan back to shiny steel while leaving the rearmost part of the sway bar mount attached to the car. then i cut the donor pan to fit the cleaned up hole and welded it into place. i tied the inner rocker to the pan from the top side with a full weld. after the patch was in place, i hammer fit some galvanized steel into the corner and welded it up. it's not as pretty as the factory floor but it's every bit as strong - maybe stronger.
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tomorrow i'll hit the entire floor with 2 coats of por15 and spray the rocker tubes and frame rails with a zinc rich epoxy that seals and stabilizes rust. i got enough of that fancy rustproofing to do the frame horns, too. the cans come with a 30" flexible tube with a special brass nozzle that give a 360 degree spray pattern. you buzz a 1/4" hole into the blind cavity you want to treat, shove the tube in, pull the trigger to start the spray, and draw the tube out. when you're done, you pop a little plastic cap in the hole to seal it.
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Edited by t3ragtop, Jul 3 2011, 09:42 PM.
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compjake
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Beautiful, just beautiful! :D Your project is looking very nice, I cant wait till I see her run :)
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

with the floor repairs finished up, i moved on to less glamorous work today. the por15 rust encapsulator cured rock hard and i brushed a high quality seam sealer on the welds and seams.
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today, i spent a full 9 hours in the blazing sun mounting and wiring the boost controller and the 6 extra gauges on the dash and in the pillar pod. the car is a mk2 and i mounted the most important instrumentation atop the cluster's pod in vdo gauge housings. from left to right i have: cyberdyne digital fuel pressure in green leds, cyberdyne digital vacuum/ boost in red leds, and an innovate mtx o2 controller/ display, red leds display afr and red, yellow, and green individual leds create an analog display around the edge of the bezel. also, attached to the o2 gauge's pod, i mounted my boost controller knob. i mounted a "missile launcher" type switch on the dash to the right of the steering wheel that turns the controller on and off. to the right, on the flat top part of the dash i have a cyberdyne digital battery voltage gauge in red leds. located in my old pillar pod i have oil temperature and oil pressure cyberdyne digital gauges with amber led displays.

i'm here to tell you that just the mounting and wiring of the gauges was tedious work. all that cutting, stripping, soldering, and heat shrinking on a total of 80 joints and fishing 40 wires through the dash from the engine bay to the gauge positions took me the entire day and i didn't even stop to take any pictures.

i'll get a shot of the dash with the gauges tomorrow now that i have everything back in place and buttoned up.
Edited by t3ragtop, Jul 5 2011, 10:09 PM.
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