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Replaced top end... won't time... help me...; Replaced top end... won't time... help me...
Topic Started: Sep 4 2011, 09:27 PM (1,219 Views)
ebroemmel1
New Member
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Can anyone help me? I haven't been on here in a while so I'll introduce myself again... Hello, My name is Erik, I own a 93 metro LSI convertible 1.0 liter. I have been having trouble with my Metro running right all year. My last comunication with this forum led to one of the Metro Guru Gods Johnny Mullet telling me to perform a compression test. Compresion was bad. Thinking burnt exhaust valve.. Anyway, I replaced top end very carefully and patiently.. (really I was busy so it took months...) Now we're all back together and ready to go..... No start... Advanced the distrubitor and it started... running 2000 - 2400 RPMs at idle.... put a timing light on it and it's running approx 25 BTC..... If I adjust the distributor back, watching the timing light, the car dies around 20 BTC.... Tried adjusting idle speed but it is already at min... What can I do next??? Help me Metro Gods............. I'll thank you in advance for anything you can reccomend...
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starscream5000
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Got 70 MPG?

It sounds like you have the timing belt off by a tooth, your timing shouldn't be anywhere near that high.

Try retarding the camshaft by one tooth and see if that helps any.
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ebroemmel1
New Member
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I kept re-checking the timing belt and re-alining the marks. I even tried one tooth in each direction. I was adjusting by one tooth on the timing gear not the camshaft... Thanks, I'll try that....
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starscream5000
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Got 70 MPG?

Yep, moving the crankshaft sprocket one tooth advanced or retarded will never allow the motor to start. It's the camshaft that needs to be fiddled with. The crankshaft sprocket must be spot on to work.
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Alpine
1020cc G10 GOML

timing is a b**ch

line them up, rotate crank 2 times, should line up again
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JellyBeanDriver


starscream5000
Sep 5 2011, 04:23 PM
Yep, moving the crankshaft sprocket one tooth advanced or retarded will never allow the motor to start. It's the camshaft that needs to be fiddled with. The crankshaft sprocket must be spot on to work.
one tooth off on either the crank or camshaft results in the same effect.
Think of it this way - hold the crank still and turn the camshaft 1 tooth or hold the camshaft and turn the crank 1 tooth - net effect is the piston to camshaft timing is off the same amount in both cases.


Ebroemmel - are you putting the timing jumper in when you're setting timing?
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ebroemmel1
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JellyBeanDriver... You asked if I had it jumpered when I set the timing. That's a good question. The problem is that I have yet to find timing instructions that match my engine. All the jumper diagrams I've seen show only 4 leads, (abcd). Mine has six. It seems that there are several different set-ups with these engines and the stickers on the hood can vary greatly... My sticker only says to plug the dist vac lines and set 6 BTC... I will say that my hood is a different color so I don't know if this is even the right sticker. My set-up has no vac lines directly on the dist and I don't know if a jumper is needed on this ABCDEF diag plug.... Yours is just a year older than mine. Is it like mine? Any Ideas?
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JellyBeanDriver


ebroemmel1
Sep 9 2011, 05:03 PM
JellyBeanDriver... You asked if I had it jumpered when I set the timing. That's a good question. The problem is that I have yet to find timing instructions that match my engine. All the jumper diagrams I've seen show only 4 leads, (abcd). Mine has six. It seems that there are several different set-ups with these engines and the stickers on the hood can vary greatly... My sticker only says to plug the dist vac lines and set 6 BTC... I will say that my hood is a different color so I don't know if this is even the right sticker. My set-up has no vac lines directly on the dist and I don't know if a jumper is needed on this ABCDEF diag plug.... Yours is just a year older than mine. Is it like mine? Any Ideas?
Sounds like your sticker is wrong. I'll post a picture.
Posted Image
Edited by JellyBeanDriver, Sep 9 2011, 09:33 PM.
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Geeeo
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Geeeo
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I know it may not even be mechanically possible but could the camshaft gear be installed backwards? Can the distributor be installed in more than one position on the cam? I say with questions because I am just a bit new at GEO themselves my 97 is the first GEO Metro I have ever owned and I had a diagnostics facility for over 15 years and hardly ever seen a Geo stop in!
Slow down, take a breath, and start from scratch one more time, step by step. :hmm I have seen in my 20+ years as a Master Technician that if what you did seemed too easy likely you did something wrong. :banghead
It is entirely possible that you have the plug wires off by one all the way around I can't count the times "mechanics" would come in after "tuning up" their car at home and nearly in a puddle of tears, hair all pulled out knuckles busted to find out they were off on the firing order by one all the way around.

Just food for thought I'm not saying I'm better I just have seen some real Dooooozies ! Good luck
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Norby
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Geeeo
Sep 9 2011, 10:31 PM
I know it may not even be mechanically possible but could the camshaft gear be installed backwards?....
It can't be installed backwards, only fits one way. I'll 2nd it on checking the correct order of the spark plug cables.

OP - verify your crank sprocket and cam sprocket line up with their prospective marks. Then, figure out the jumper and get it timed.
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Rusty34
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If the cam is timed properly (sprocket timing marks correctly aligned) the valves for each cylinder will both be open equally a small amount at TDC in the split overlap position. TDC split overlap is one complete revolution from TDC firing. You can easily check this by positioning any cylinder at TDC in split overlap and visually watch the cam lobes move the valves while you rock the crankshaft back and forth about 5 degrees to visually compare amount of valve opening. It will be easy to see if they are both open about the same at TDC or one is ahead of the other. If they are not equal you are a tooth off on the belt.

Regards, Rusty
Edited by Rusty34, Sep 10 2011, 03:03 PM.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

To be redundant, here is the picture of the crank and cam gear marks:

Posted Image

The spark plug wires:

Posted Image

And this is timed off the #1 cylinder, the one on the left, away from the distributor, using the distributor post at 11 o'clock, viewed from the battery. AND it is done at Top Dead Center of the compression stroke - if you are checking it.

So, imagine that your dist. needs to be rotated toward the firewall 20 deg. to fire, then the whole cam gear/cam/dist. needs to rotate so the dist. rotor is at 11 o'clock when the crank gear is aligned with it's mark on the block.

My cam had a tendency to "settle" one tooth off when I was installing the belt due to a little valve spring tension. :banghead
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ebroemmel1
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Thank you all... You have all given me some ideas to work with. I owe special thanks for the hood timing sticker. I finally see one that directly matches my set-up. I owe you bigtime...............
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