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Fixed my intermittent clicky starter problem; symtoms similar to bad starter or starter solinoid
Topic Started: Mar 12 2012, 03:29 PM (8,411 Views)
Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

Woodie
Nov 10 2014, 06:42 AM
Silver2K
Nov 9 2014, 11:21 PM
The fundamental problem is the ignition switch degrades & has too much resistance. Anything you do to reduce resistance will fix the problem for a while. For example, cleaning the battery posts, adjusting the clutch position sensor, cleaning the blade on the starter solenoid, jiggling the key, replacing the starter, getting a new battery. But the problem will return unless you replace the ignition switch, or bypass it with a relay. The ignition switch is $300. You can get a relay for $3 on ebay.
:banghead :banghead :banghead

I don't understand how so many people can replace the parts that are working fine and fix the problem. Am I completely missing something here? If the solenoid goes click, then the ignition switch clutch/neutral safety switch, wiring and spade terminal on the solenoid HAVE DONE THEIR JOB.
The solenoid engagement strength is based on the current supplied to it. If the solenoid doesn't hit hard enough it won't make the contacts connect up (old starter will have corrosion or carbon build up so a new starter will work until that builds back up) and you get a click from it but no start. Extra resistance in the switch and the small starter wire reduces the current available to activate the solenoid. The engineers that made the headlight wiring too small also make the starter wiring too small. Replacing any of the parts involved in the issue, including the ones that only fix it for a while, cost a significant amount of money or hassle. A relay, which fixes the problem by providing power directly from the battery with very little resistance, only costs a few bucks and is easy to wire up.

This one is my wheelhouse, trust me on this Woodie.
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m4ick
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Perfect timing! I replaced my starter a couple of months back and started having this issue last week. It only did the click thing once but for days after it was EXTREMELY weak starting. Yesterday morning I didn't think it was going to start. Now it's perfectly fine, nice and strong like new! I haven't done a thing to it, makes me think this is my issue.
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Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

Yep. Something will improve the resistance and it will work great for a while. Then it will build the resistance back up and click click. There just isn't enough thickness in the wire to make up for the extra resistance that builds up. You can futz with it over and over and make it work for a few weeks or months before it comes back, or fix it permanently with a relay.
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calrenman
Just another wrench.

wow, common problem.

This is my thread:
http://geometroforum.com/topic/5116678/1/#new

I put a thirty amp (fused w/ a 20 amp fuse from positive source on starter) tractor starter switch in the dash.

The yellow cable is the routing i chose for the remote (red neck) starter switch:

http://geometroforum.com/topic/5120055/2/

I have been using this to good effect for over a year. Good theft deterrent too! Unless the thief is a Bubba, then SOL.

From P.M. I have sent to you:


Throwing a code on obd2 1500 Mine did.
It is an easy fix. Make a Y that fits all three connectors( stock wire, push button wire, solenoid spade/connector). I believe two male and one female. You MUST TURN THE KEY AND PRESS THE BUTTON AT THE SAME TIME OR YOU PULL THE CODE. You can call me after 5 pm pacific if you need more help." Phone number in P.M.
Edited by calrenman, Nov 12 2014, 11:19 PM.
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vr4


Woodie
Nov 9 2014, 08:18 PM
If it clicks, then the power is getting to the solenoid. All the relays in the world are not going to help, it's already getting power. If you get that strong click but it doesn't turn over, it's the solenoid, the starter, the battery, or the big cables between the battery and the starter.
One would generally think that. I've been at this whole fixing cars for a living since 2k.

My car did this a couple years ago. Swap starters 3x (I have a few that interchange) and it was so random I always thought it was fixed. Couple days later it was back. Start digging deeper and found poor contact at my clutch switch bypass. Fix it and no problems since.

Yes power was getting to the starter from the ignition switch as verified by a test light. The solenoid was also giving the usual click indicating poor contact in the solenoid.

I fully believe after my own experience a relay to provide full voltage and amperage to the solenoid will help.
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Richard123vmt


I have found that sticking solenoids respond very well to cleaning of the well and very thin coat of grease on the spring and well, then seal the solenoid with rtv. Dirt makes them stick in the bore.
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Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

I just checked the date I put the relay in. It was February of 2006. It has never clicked without starting since then, with nothing else replaced in the starting circuit.
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calrenman
Just another wrench.

I never thought of the clutch safety switch.
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metromizer


Silver2K
Nov 10 2014, 11:18 AM
The solenoid is a magnetic device. It works on current (the magnetic field stength is directly proportional to current), not voltage. Current I = V/R. If R is too big, I is too small and the solenoid cannot activate. Anything that increases R can cause the click.

If you google this topic on Samurais and Trackers you will see what they have in common is they lack starter relays so the ignition switch has to pass all the current in the solenoid. If you read enough of those threads you will see some people say they fixed it by replacing the starter or something else. But just as many people replace something and the problem returns. The relay is a $3 fix.
yes!!!! exactly. The starter solenoid is not getting enough current through the worn/tarnished OEM ignition switch contacts and tiny gauge wire and associated tarnished terminals.

With the addition of an inexpensive and very commonly available solid state relay, the OEM ignition circuit only needs to pass a fraction of it's design current, just enough to trigger the new relay, which now carries all the current to the starter solenoid.

Think of a starter solenoid as a big 'ole relay, because without it, the starter switch would need to carry lots of current, would be big and expensive. The ignition switch is supposed to carry enough current to energize the lower current solenoid, thus completing the starter circuit. Adding a relay to the solenoid circuit is what I (and several others) have done.

Bottom line: If you have symptoms of a bad solenoid, bad starter, have replaced a 'marginal' battery only to have the same problem rear it's ugly head once again... add a $10 relay to the solenoid circuit.
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solerpower
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metromizer
Jan 6 2015, 01:33 PM
Silver2K
Nov 10 2014, 11:18 AM
The solenoid is a magnetic device. It works on current (the magnetic field stength is directly proportional to current), not voltage. Current I = V/R. If R is too big, I is too small and the solenoid cannot activate. Anything that increases R can cause the click.

If you google this topic on Samurais and Trackers you will see what they have in common is they lack starter relays so the ignition switch has to pass all the current in the solenoid. If you read enough of those threads you will see some people say they fixed it by replacing the starter or something else. But just as many people replace something and the problem returns. The relay is a $3 fix.
yes!!!! exactly. The starter solenoid is not getting enough current through the worn/tarnished OEM ignition switch contacts and tiny gauge wire and associated tarnished terminals.

With the addition of an inexpensive and very commonly available solid state relay, the OEM ignition circuit only needs to pass a fraction of it's design current, just enough to trigger the new relay, which now carries all the current to the starter solenoid.

Think of a starter solenoid as a big 'ole relay, because without it, the starter switch would need to carry lots of current, would be big and expensive. The ignition switch is supposed to carry enough current to energize the lower current solenoid, thus completing the starter circuit. Adding a relay to the solenoid circuit is what I (and several others) have done.

Bottom line: If you have symptoms of a bad solenoid, bad starter, have replaced a 'marginal' battery only to have the same problem rear it's ugly head once again... add a $10 relay to the solenoid circuit.


What solid state relay did you use? (I was thinking of just grabbing a common relay from one of my parts cars). Where did you pull your power from? Where did you mount the relay? I would assume that you ran the solenoid clip wire back up the firewall to the top and ran a ground to it from the firewall ground, and then routed a new larger gauge wire with the main hot wire for the starter back to the engine fuse box. What amperage did you drop it down to? Thanks
Edited by solerpower, Jan 29 2015, 12:43 AM.
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solerpower
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Richard123vmt
Nov 13 2014, 01:56 AM
I have found that sticking solenoids respond very well to cleaning of the well and very thin coat of grease on the spring and well, then seal the solenoid with rtv. Dirt makes them stick in the bore.
Did you clean it completely dry, absolutely no grease. I just put in a new solenoid and it is starting to stick again. I don't get any clicks or whirling noise. I can tap on it and it will start up. I'll put a relay in with a 30amp fuse and go from there. If no good at that point, I will pull the solenoid back out and clean everything down with electrical parts cleaner.
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Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

solerpower
Jan 29 2015, 12:57 AM
Richard123vmt
Nov 13 2014, 01:56 AM
I have found that sticking solenoids respond very well to cleaning of the well and very thin coat of grease on the spring and well, then seal the solenoid with rtv. Dirt makes them stick in the bore.
Did you clean it completely dry, absolutely no grease. I just put in a new solenoid and it is starting to stick again. I don't get any clicks or whirling noise. I can tap on it and it will start up. I'll put a relay in with a 30amp fuse and go from there. If no good at that point, I will pull the solenoid back out and clean everything down with electrical parts cleaner.
The relay will fix the problem. The easy way to prove it to yourself is to use a fused jumper to the battery, (make sure the car is out of gear, the parking brake is set, and the key is off). Touch the jumper to the starter wire spade on the starter, if the starter spins every time the relay will work every time.

The problem relates to the decision by GM/ Suzuki to use the smallest acceptable wire size for the starter, which works fine until there is some corrosion in the circuit. When that happens the voltage drop that causes leaves only enough power to activate the solenoid hard enough to make a click sound, but not close the contacts to the starter motor. When the flywheel and starter teeth are aligned it doesn't have to hit as hard to close the contacts so it works intermittently. Same is true for a new starter, the contacts are perfectly clean so even a little contact will work. After you start it a few times it needs a solid connection to get through the carbon that builds up and the click click returns.
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solerpower
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Metromightymouse
Jan 29 2015, 04:02 AM
solerpower
Jan 29 2015, 12:57 AM
Richard123vmt
Nov 13 2014, 01:56 AM
I have found that sticking solenoids respond very well to cleaning of the well and very thin coat of grease on the spring and well, then seal the solenoid with rtv. Dirt makes them stick in the bore.
Did you clean it completely dry, absolutely no grease. I just put in a new solenoid and it is starting to stick again. I don't get any clicks or whirling noise. I can tap on it and it will start up. I'll put a relay in with a 30amp fuse and go from there. If no good at that point, I will pull the solenoid back out and clean everything down with electrical parts cleaner.
The relay will fix the problem. The easy way to prove it to yourself is to use a fused jumper to the battery, (make sure the car is out of gear, the parking brake is set, and the key is off). Touch the jumper to the starter wire spade on the starter, if the starter spins every time the relay will work every time.

The problem relates to the decision by GM/ Suzuki to use the smallest acceptable wire size for the starter, which works fine until there is some corrosion in the circuit. When that happens the voltage drop that causes leaves only enough power to activate the solenoid hard enough to make a click sound, but not close the contacts to the starter motor. When the flywheel and starter teeth are aligned it doesn't have to hit as hard to close the contacts so it works intermittently. Same is true for a new starter, the contacts are perfectly clean so even a little contact will work. After you start it a few times it needs a solid connection to get through the carbon that builds up and the click click returns.
I will just throw the relay on there and find out. It should take about the same time as testing it. The solenoid secondary power is a tiny wire (around 18 gauge, or even smaller). Thanks for the information.
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Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

I fought the clicky starter for ages, kept trying stuff to fix it, things would work for a little while then not. Replaced the starter and messed with other stuff and it still came back. Put a relay and a starter button on it and it has never clicked since.
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solerpower
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No difference with relay in. It is not solid state relay, but the voltage and amperage to the secondary solenoid power is as good as it's going to get. It still starts with taps to solenoid. I'll clean it an go from there. It could be D.O.A. for the solenoid.
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