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Won't stay running; 1999 metro won't stay running
Topic Started: Jun 5 2012, 08:27 AM (3,394 Views)
randolph1223
New Member
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Good morning all, I have a 1999 Chevy metro with the 1.3L, automatic, 4 door. My son bought this car for his senior project with a suspected blown water pump and maybe a head gasket. We pulled the motor, replaced main bearings, pistons, rings, water pump, lower crank sensor, CAM sensor, plugs, head gasket, timing belt, had injectors serviced and the head pressure tested and milled for the new install.
After installing the motor back into the car, we cranked it to start and but it wouldn't light off. It cranks and cranks but not starting. I verified spark, and timing and couldn't figure it out. I took it to a Chevy dealer where they told me that the timing was on the wrong mark and that I had low compression in #3 cyclinder. They timed it and that was it for them. I took it to another mechanic and he told me that the dealership timed it on the wrong mark(not me), adjusted all the valves, and played around with the motor and finally got it started...for 10-15 minutes. At around that time frame, the car shuts off and won't start until the following day. He states that the motor purrs like a kitten when it finally does start so atleast we did the internals correct and he says I have good compression.
He states that the ECM isn't receiving any codes when it does shut off and that I might have a bad ECM. I bought a brand new one from Chevy...now it is harder to start and runs for about 5 minutes before it shuts down with no codes. He says it does a back-firing through the intake while cranking to start and then all of a sudden it will just start and run fine..for the minutes that it wants. He has checked relays, fuses, sensors, and what grounds he can find but still can't get it to stay running.
Has anyone EVER heard of such a thing or have an idea of what maybe causing this problem?? My son just graduated without this senior project and at this point I would like to get it going so he can get a job..lol. HELP PLEASE.
Edited by randolph1223, Jun 5 2012, 08:29 AM.
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Memphis metro


I am amazed how many people always say you might have a bad ecm! Put your old one back in the car. First step is make sure, make sure the timing belt is installed correctly and after that perform a compression test on all cylinders and make sure you do have good compression on every cylinder. Then proceed with finding whats wrong. Backfiring thru the intake suggest to me the plug wires are wired wrong if the timing belt is installed correctly. Make sure you have the distributor rotation correct and the wires are wired correctly.
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randolph1223
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I verified the belt, and the current mechanic verified good compression. This motor doesn't have a distributor(cam and crank sensors), and the coil packs for the spark plugs only seem to be able to reach to the appropriate cyclinders.
Edited by randolph1223, Jun 5 2012, 08:48 AM.
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Memphis metro


Oh yes, I forgot about the coil packs. Backfiring thru the intake does suggest a timing issue though.
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randolph1223
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That's what we thought also but according to the manual, it is all on the correct marks. The main issue I see at this point is why it won't stay running. One ECM allows for it to run longer and a little easier to finally get started, and the brand new one takes longer to get started and runs for less time. If it isn't the fuses, relays, timing(because it does actually run good when started)...what else could it be? I appreciate your time in helping me with this also..
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Memphis metro


You might consider checking your fuel pressure.
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randolph1223
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I just talked to the mechanic and he said he did a pressure check and all was well right thru the car shutting off. He even said that he fed it fuel manually and it got worse. He said he has to crank it about ten times for it to finally start and then it acts like nothing was ever wrong? He is now looking at pin verification from the ECM to find the wires suppying power for the ignition to monitor those and see if one loses power at the same time the car shuts off. The obvious issue is with the car only running 5 minutes a day now, it is time consuming for a running check on multiple wires..lol.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

You might print our and have him check http://geometroforum.com/topic/2703156/1/ CKP and CMP sensor test by mwebb. You can PM mewbb and he might work with your mechanic.

To that end the keyway on the crank shaft may be work and the timing pulley/timing is not correct. Rather common if the crank sprocket 17mm bolt is not torqued properly. That would mess up the CranK Position sensor. As would a gasket on the oil pan or broken teeth on the plate behind crank sprocket that the CranK Position sensor reads.

Another no-start issue will be the oil pressure relief valve. http://geometroforum.com/topic/4593450/1/

As blue rhino says about the timing marks:
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randolph1223
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Talked to the mechanic, he said he replaced both CKP & CMP sensors to no availe, he verified the crank sprocket torque and that the marks were lined up.

Does anyone happen to know which wires going into the ECM(colors,size?) carry power into it and which wires carry or send the signal to the ignition? This might speed up or simplify the searching process for him. I don't know what program he uses for his schematics but I am trying to facilitate this 1 year ordeal. :beer
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Woodie
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You didn't put a gasket on the oil pan, did you? That causes problems like this due to weakening the Crank Sensor signal.
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randolph1223
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I believe we did because it came in the kit I bought for rebuilding this motor. But the crank sensor Ohm'd out correctly. How would that affect it after it is already running? It is hard to initially start but then runs great for a few minutes then shuts off......thx.

OH!!! Did I mention that this is also a CALIFORNIA spec car? I don't know whether that changes this whole discussion or not.....
Edited by randolph1223, Jun 6 2012, 06:04 AM.
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poorman1


REMOVE the gasket and use only silicone
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mwebb
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FOG

stop replacing things that are not broken
connect a scan tool
even a generic POS and get to live data
bring up the RPM PID , PID = parameter ID

crank the engine like you were going to start the engine watch RPM
if RPM is not close to 200 as the engine cranks and does not start
then
the ECM does not see the crankshaft sensor

remove the gasket on the oil pan and retest

focus on this 1 test - replace nothing else , except possibly the oil pan gasket
is the car a manual transmission ?
if yes
attempt to start without stepping on the clutch .
thrust bearing play can cause no start by

reducing amplitude of the CKP output to the ECM , same way oil pan gasket does

post test results
test , stop guessing
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randolph1223
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First off, thx for all the replys, I appreciate the insight. Now, I am not guessing at anything on this car. I have had several certified mechanics look at it and they are the ones running all the tests and such, I just repeat what they have told me.

The crank sensor and cam sensor are both brand new. If the oil pan seal is getting in the way of getting a good solid reading for the crank sensor, wouldn't that stop the car from starting at all? It does start and run for a few minutes. They even drove it around the lot. It just seems to shut down once the motor gets warm or 5-10 minutes. I am dealing with an older man who has been doing this for years and I don't want to call him and tell him to remove the oil pan seal if it isn't needed. He gets really testy..lol. He says he does have the diognostic tools that he has been using on it, that's how he found out that the ECM doesn't have any codes. Just trying to get all the info before I call and get an A$$ chewing...... :scared
Edited by randolph1223, Jun 7 2012, 10:06 AM.
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mwebb
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FOG

you are guessing
if you were not guessing you would not have replaced the CKP and CMP

stop it

learn how to learn

re read my post above

provide the rpm value during no start
then i will provide your next step

your "certified" techs are not as good as i am ,
ready
begin
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