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| Buying 2x 1994 Geo Metros and looking to fix valve/timing issue; Not sure what is wrong but plan to pull valve cover once I get cars. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 20 2012, 09:07 AM (1,499 Views) | |
| cwatkin | Jul 20 2012, 09:07 AM Post #1 |
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I am in the process of purchasing 2x 1994 Geo Metros with the 1.0L engine and 5 speed manual. One of these is a beater but the engine runs like a top. The other one is pretty cherry for a car this age but something is up with the engine. I have been told two stories so I am not sure which one is right... 1. Someone who wasn't really familiar with a manual transmission was driving it and downshifted from 5th gear to 4th on the interstate. This missed 4th and went to second so the engine revved up too high. 2. They never upshifted once at highway speeds and had it running in too low of a gear for an extended time, revving the engine too high. The engine in this one runs but runs like crap after this mishap. Everyone who has looked at this car, myself included, feels that it is something valve train related. There is no ticking or clattering but the engine run rough and has no power. Here are some of the suggestions/thoughts. 1. I personally think the timing belt might have jumped a cog or two so it isn't timed properly. 2. A valve may be stuck open (I think this might be likely). 3. A pushrod or pushrods got bent. 4. A rocker arm bent. The guy I am getting these from planned to make one good car and scrap the other but I don't think this is catastrophic in nature and would like to fix and sell one of these as I know there is demand. I plan to pull the valve cover on this one first thing once I get the cars and their titles to see if anything is bent/broken underneath. I looked inside the fill hole on the valve cover and the oil on the dipstick. It was very dirty and needs to be changed but has no sign of sludge, etc. I have been told that the previous owner might have gone 20k without an oil change so this makes me wonder about the stuck valve theory. I may just need to give the top end a cleaning and would let Sea Foam or similar circulate at idle to clean the engine out once I get the valve unstuck (if that is the issue). I am also considering swapping engines to the car I want to keep, even if I fix this problem. The engine in the beater runs so strong and seemed to have a lot cleaner oil so this indicates engine maintenance might have been performed at better intervals than the other. The beater has 170k miles and the better one has 152k or something miles so I figure that I should stick with the better maintained engine with a few more miles. The better (overall) car also has a new clutch and the clutch on the beater feels good too. Also, what else should I do besides change the oil/filters in engines with no service history? I was planning to change the timing belt and tensioner as well as the water pump on the one I plan to keep. I plan to do the same on the other engine if I tear into the timing side of it. Is there any brand of timing components I should buy or is the "parts store" brand just fine? I understand this is an "interference" engine so it is critical that the timing belt not fail. What else should I do on these engines, especially if the valve cover and/or timing covers are removed on both. Also, should I get a timing components kit with the camshaft seal or is that not needed? Thanks, Conor |
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| Memphis metro | Jul 20 2012, 09:22 AM Post #2 |
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No rockers, no pushrods. Not a interferance engine. Do a engine compression test and go from there. |
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| cwatkin | Jul 20 2012, 10:22 AM Post #3 |
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Thanks. That was stupid of me to ask about pushrods and rockers as I know this is SOHC. Anyway, I will be getting the cars today. Also, should I get a new oil pump when I tear into the side of the engine? I understand it is in the mix with the timing cover, water pump, etc. Or, is this a part that simply doesn't fail and would be a waste? So I don't need to worry about self destruction of any engine parts in the event of a belt failure? Quite a few sites listed the 3 cyl 1.0L as an interference engine. Either way, I plan to replace the timing belt, tensioner, and associated gaskets/seals as well as the water pump on the car/engine I plan to keep. Is there ANY reason for me to change the oil pump or not? Thanks, Conor |
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| cwatkin | Jul 20 2012, 10:41 AM Post #4 |
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How about the crank and cam seals? Are they an item that should be replaced for good measure or do you only worry about this when there are leaks? Conor |
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| Memphis metro | Jul 20 2012, 11:05 AM Post #5 |
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Run the oil pump. I only change seals when they leak myself or during a rebuild. |
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| Bad Bent | Jul 20 2012, 03:25 PM Post #6 |
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Facetious Educated Donkey
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Welcome to your new forum, cwatkin! There is good reason to pull your oil pan and check the oil pressure relief valve before doing the whole pump. You will also be able to inspect the crank and some of the cylinders. You could hook up a oil pressur gauge and see what the pressure actually is. High idle/poor mileage/engine hestitation problems solved!; |
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| Woodie | Jul 21 2012, 06:01 AM Post #7 |
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I would swap the engines and then take my time doing a thorough rebuild on the crappy one. |
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| cwatkin | Jul 21 2012, 10:30 AM Post #8 |
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Thanks for the advice. I changed the oil in both engines last night and these things look super easy to work on. I can tell that the engine in the junky car is in much better shape and had better and more frequenty maintenance done so an engine swap is 100% certain. The oil was very nasty in the one engine although I didn't see any metal particles, etc. I really think the thing just jumped time and I am going to check this out today. It looks like I need to lower the engine a tad bit for better access to the bolts on the pulleys, timing cover, etc. The symptoms I have is that the engine barely wants to idle and is gutless on power. It is just running like crap on all cylinders and there is blue smoke coming from the tailpipe. There is some free oil in the air cleaner housing so there is some blowby or the PCV valve needs cleaning/replacement. I am going to check this for sure before considering the engine rebuild. The other engine runs strong and solid so I plan do do some routine/preventative maintenance on it and call it good. I drove the car first before opening the hood and I thought the owner might have been mistaken about this having the 3 cylinder. I can understand why these little cars have such a following. Both cars are nearly identical so I am tempted to keep the beater as a parts vehicle. I have $750 in both of them plus the guy threw in a bunch of free stuff left by the person who used to farm on his property that I could use at my place. Thanks, Conor |
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| Murf 59 | Jul 21 2012, 10:38 AM Post #9 |
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Compression test. Our little engines are known for burning exhaust valves |
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| cwatkin | Jul 21 2012, 11:13 AM Post #10 |
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Thanks for the advice on the compression test. I will pick up a "loan a tool" tester today while I am in town. Either way, I am going to check the timing belt before I head out. Would burned up exhaust valves be more likely if the engine was run at too high of an RPM for an extended period? I have heard this might be the case or the driver might have missed a gear and force revved the engine into the red. It looks like pulling the head wouldn't be a big deal either. What else would I need besides replacement valves, a head gasket, and valve cover gasket? Conor |
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| cwatkin | Jul 21 2012, 01:03 PM Post #11 |
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Ok, I did a little work on this engine this morning. Timing was fine. Compression in one cylinder was not. Here is what I did. I took out all the plugs when aligning the timing marks and noticed that one was really nasty and carboned up. It was the cylinder on the left side near the distibutor. I then put the plugs in one by one and turned the engine over with a wrench several times. I could tell that the other two cylinders had decent compression due to the resistance to being turned over but this one was almost as though the spark plug was still removed! I am going to town in a little bit. I really don't see the need to get a compression tester after this "field" compression test I did. It is obvious something is up with a valve in this cylinder. Is there a possibility it is just a stuck valve or is that unlikely? I guess an exhaust valve has bit it if not. How complicated is it to replace this valve and what needs to be done to the head? Thanks, Conor |
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| Woodie | Jul 22 2012, 06:37 AM Post #12 |
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Burned exhaust valves are the usual problem, broken pistons are also common. Stuck valves are not. Blue smoke leads me to believe that you have a broken piston, might just be stuck rings though. They are very easy to work on, but doing a head/valve job alone usually results in an oil burner as the rings wear at about the same rate as the valves. Best and most common rebuild is new exhaust valves, new lifters, complete valve lapping, head cleaning, mill the head for flatness, plus hone the cylinders and replace rings, plus all seals, gaskets, timing belt and water pump. |
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| cwatkin | Jul 22 2012, 11:04 AM Post #13 |
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That is good to know. How about replacing the main rod bearings and such? Wouldn't that be something I should look at too if I decide to overhaul this engine? I am guessing it has stuck or worn rings as the blue smoke wasn't just horrendous. It was noticeable to the eye and smelly but not mosquito fogger quality. On the other hand, I guess piece of a broken valve could fall in and break a piston quite easily. I inspected the old oil for metal particles and couldn't see anything so that might or might not be a sign. For stuck rings, I know a guy who will take the plugs out and fill the cylinders up with a mix of Sea Foam and Marvel Mystery Oil and let it soak overnight. If I go to the trouble of redoing the head, I think I will go ahead and re-ring the engine. Thanks, Conor |
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| Woodie | Jul 23 2012, 04:20 AM Post #14 |
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Usually, no bottom end work is necessary. You have to take the rods off to get the pistons out, so most folks put in new rod bearings, but it's almost unheard of for anything to go wrong down there. The pistons break along the ring slots, with the piston skirt falling into the oil pan along with the rings. Engine keeps running (poorly) sometimes makes some clunking noise, sometimes not, burns a lot of oil. In this case, you need a bore and oversized pistons, so the engine has to come out of the car and a full rebuild is in order. |
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| cwatkin | Jul 23 2012, 10:18 AM Post #15 |
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I see. Well the engine is already out of the car as of yesterday. I decided to grab some wrenches and sockets and see how much damage I could do. I unbolted it from the transmission and the mount on the right side and got it jacked up in the engine bay in short order. I think I could have picked this up myself if it wasn't for having to wrestle it out of the bay and get the flywheel/clutch clear of the bell housing. I called a neighbor and we had the old engine out in no time. Just for grins, I decided to see if I could pick up the engine by myself once it was sitting outside on the ground. I am not a huge guy (150-160lbs) but pretty well built for my size and was able to pick the engine up no problem. This had the water pump, alternator, etc. off of it but included the head, manifolds, etc. I did change the oil, partly to see if there were any metal fragments in the oil and it was EXTREMELY dirty but didn't appear to have one bit of metal. Plus, there was no clattering/clunking from the engine so I think that it is a valve. I suspect exhaust valves as it sounds very common, especially with poor maintenance. This engine may have gone 20-30k without an oil change! I plan to keep this motor and see what happens once the other one is swapped into its place. The other engine seems solid and powerful but I found a few things that kinda worry me about that one too. The PCV valve is shot and there was a lot of sludge in the hose/tube as well as free oil in the air cleaner housing which I guess isn't the end of the world. The thing that worries me is that the air cleaner housing had been rigged and I could see that quite a bit of gravel road dust/sand had been deposited atop the throttle body. How much was sucked into the engine is a total unknown. I also changed the oil in this engine so that is likely a good thing. Either way, if I start to have issues, I will do a nice job rebuilding the other engine and put it back in. I was told that the clutch on the blown engine is brand new and I believe it. It is very clean and new looking plus the pressure plate assembly looks brand new. There is no surface rust at all so I am likely going to just re-use that clutch. I mean it looks like it was just put on. The release bearing is still on the transmission input shaft and I may swap or simply buy a new pilot bearing. Would you even worry about replacing this? The beater car with the good engine sometimes has a hard time shifting gears, especially downshifting. I am guessing it may be ready to have new synchros or something. I will probably also pull this transmission and keep as a spare. The hacked up beater car looks like the body/subframe may be beyond repair. The frame rail below the driver door is basically disintigrated from rust enough that I think the car may be sagging a tad. The subframe above the lower control arms is very rusted. This in addition to the issues described here http://geometroforum.com/topic/4871498/1/#new The good car has some minor rust around the lower control arm mounts. It appears there is a defective seal along the seam that runs along the top, allowing water/salt to enter. Since the engine is out of this car, I have good access to the area. I used a pressure washer and blew out all the dirt/grime/rust through the rust holes and then followed with brake parts cleaner and another pressure washing. I plan to let this dry out well (shouldn't take long in this heat), spray some rust converter in there, apply rusty metal primer, then some cold galvanizing spray, then automotive undercoating, then fill cavity with expanding foam, then seal up holes/seams so water cannot enter. I am considering scrapping the beater car and keeping all the useable parts for myself or to resell. If anyone is interested in it, I might be willing to leave a few more parts in it and sell the hulk. Thanks, Conor |
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9:41 AM Jul 11