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1994 Geo Metro 1.0L has dead cylinder-zero compression; The engine has zero compression in left cylinder
Topic Started: Jul 21 2012, 01:45 PM (1,694 Views)
cwatkin


I bought a couple of "fixer upper" 1994 1.0L Metros yesterday and have torn into them already. One has a good and solid engine but is a total beater otherwise while the other has something wrong with the engine but is a MUCH better car overall. My plan is to make one good running car and sell the other and maybe get it running too. The current short term plan is to do an engine swap with these cars.

Here is what I did to figure out that one of the cylinders on the dud engine is dead. I was hoping it had simply jumped time but that seemed ok. I took out all the plugs when aligning the timing marks and noticed that one was really nasty and carboned up. It was the cylinder on the left side near the distibutor. I then put the plugs in one by one and turned the engine over with a wrench several times. I could tell that the other two cylinders had decent compression due to the resistance to being turned over but this one was almost as though the spark plug was still removed!

I am going to town in a little bit. I really don't see the need to get a compression tester after this "field" compression test I did. It is obvious something is up with a valve in this cylinder. Is there a possibility it is just a stuck valve or is that unlikely? I guess an exhaust valve has bit it if not. I understand that the exhaust valves are the weak link on these engines. Does this sound like the issue? If so, how easy would it be to put a new valve in this and what other work would be needed on the head?

Thanks,

Conor
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Probably a burned exhaust valve causing low compression. There are a few factors that lead to burned exhaust valves - dirty oil, sticking valve lifters, stuck or worn piston rings, oil pressure regulator stuck, etc. Replacing an exhaust valve will be a temporary fix. The problem will return shortly. By the time you see a burned exhaust valve, you most likely need to do many other things to the engine.
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cwatkin


I see. Well I can say that it doesn't look like maintenance was done quite the way I would like on this engine. The oil was pretty nasty and seemed somewhat gelled up in the collection pan when I dumped it into a container for recycling. I took the valve cover off and could see the lifters moving when I turned the engine by hand. All were moving so I guess they aren't sticky at all. Can a valve be stuck without a lifter being stuck?

I also found out that the owner previous to the owner I bought these two cars from doesn't believe in oil changes. He views them as some sort of communist plot to make us think we need to buy more oil. This car may have gone 20-30k without an oil change. Someone in his family was driving it when the engine went to crap and his nieghbor (the one I got it from) bought another one with the intention of making one good running vehicle.

I also saw blue smoke from the tailpipe when I had the car running. There was also free oil pooled in the air cleaner housing so there is either excessive blowby and/or a bad PCV valve.

So, I am guessing this engine likely needs more work than it would be worth? I guess I couldn't put a good $200 used head on this and call it good.

Anyway, here are my options at this point. I will definitely move the good engine to the good car first.
1. Swap all good parts from the beater car to the good car along with the engine and sell the beater car with the dud engine as is for parts or repair.
2. Same as option 1 but take a few key parts off the car before selling. What parts would you keep as spares if you had an identical car you were going to keep? I would take the ECU/ECM as well as the ignition coil for sure. Basically, I would want small parts that cost a lot to replace. What other parts would you scavenge?
3. Keep the entire car as a parts car as it is a completely identical model and year. There are 3 good tires on the car too. I have plenty of room but that seems like it wouldn't be a good thing to look at so it would need to go out back somewhere. I also know that rats/mice would begin to destroy a non-running car in short order as I live out in the woods.
4. Fix the engine correctly and sell the entire car. The car needs some work but the transmission and clutch are good. I suspect that there is something up with the front end.

Do any of these options sound more agreeable than others?

Also, what routine maintenance should I do on the good running engine besides the obvious? Are there any sensors, etc. that need cleaning or replacement after so many miles? The good engine has 170k miles while the dud has 152k miles. I guess the EGR and PCV are the first I should make sure are ok. What else is there? Of course the very first order of business was a good oil and filter change on both engines.

I am also going to change the timing belt and tensioner as well as the water pump on the engine I plan to keep for good measure.

Conor

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cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 02:33 PM
I see. Well I can say that it doesn't look like maintenance was done quite the way I would like on this engine. The oil was pretty nasty and seemed somewhat gelled up in the collection pan when I dumped it into a container for recycling. I took the valve cover off and could see the lifters moving when I turned the engine by hand. All were moving so I guess they aren't sticky at all. Can a valve be stuck without a lifter being stuck?

The lifter bodies are moving. It's the hydraulic units inside that are not moving the way they are supposed to be. They are full of the black stuff that came out of the crankcase.

cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 02:33 PM
I also found out that the owner previous to the owner I bought these two cars from doesn't believe in oil changes. He views them as some sort of communist plot to make us think we need to buy more oil. This car may have gone 20-30k without an oil change. Someone in his family was driving it when the engine went to crap and his neighbor (the one I got it from) bought another one with the intention of making one good running vehicle.

Does he wear little hats made out of aluminum foil, also? :lol Not changing the oil is death for G10 engines.

cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 02:33 PM
I also saw blue smoke from the tailpipe when I had the car running. There was also free oil pooled in the air cleaner housing so there is either excessive blowby and/or a bad PCV valve.

The damage is done. The piston rings have stuck, and/or worn out. Perhaps the cylinder bores are out of round, also.

cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 02:33 PM
So, I am guessing this engine likely needs more work than it would be worth? I guess I couldn't put a good $200 used head on this and call it good.

Or, take $200, throw it in a hole, apply gasoline and toss in a match. A head on a block in need of mechanical maintenance will soon burn a valve.

cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 02:33 PM
Anyway, here are my options at this point. I will definitely move the good engine to the good car first.
1. Swap all good parts from the beater car to the good car along with the engine and sell the beater car with the dud engine as is for parts or repair.
2. Same as option 1 but take a few key parts off the car before selling. What parts would you keep as spares if you had an identical car you were going to keep? I would take the ECU/ECM as well as the ignition coil for sure. Basically, I would want small parts that cost a lot to replace. What other parts would you scavenge?
3. Keep the entire car as a parts car as it is a completely identical model and year. There are 3 good tires on the car too. I have plenty of room but that seems like it wouldn't be a good thing to look at so it would need to go out back somewhere. I also know that rats/mice would begin to destroy a non-running car in short order as I live out in the woods.
4. Fix the engine correctly and sell the entire car. The car needs some work but the transmission and clutch are good. I suspect that there is something up with the front end.

Do any of these options sound more agreeable than others?

Option #4 gets my vote. There seems to be a need to own 2 Geo Metros within the forum community. Work on one while you drive the other one. The other one breaks, so drive the other one . . .

When gasoline hits $5 per gallon . . . :x

cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 02:33 PM
Also, what routine maintenance should I do on the good running engine besides the obvious? Are there any sensors, etc. that need cleaning or replacement after so many miles? The good engine has 170k miles while the dud has 152k miles. I guess the EGR and PCV are the first I should make sure are ok. What else is there? Of course the very first order of business was a good oil and filter change on both engines.

There are service interval recommendations in the owner's manual and the factory service manuals. Both are available on eBay.

cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 02:33 PM
I am also going to change the timing belt and tensioner as well as the water pump on the engine I plan to keep for good measure.

Conor


Sounds like a plan.
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cwatkin


Thanks for the advice. I will get the good metro in running order first and then make a decision on the other car. In all seriousness, the other car is a beater for sure. Someone cut the back of the hatch out and made a hillbilly back window plus it is painted camo all over. Is there a place to post pictures on this forum? Seriously, I need to post pictures just to see if this one is worth making a running vehicle or not. It has rust among other issues and I am worried that the structural rigidity of the unit has been destroyed by the hack job. Basically, they cut the entire hatch area out behind the front seats and made a window out of plywood and plexiglass. The back is now open like a mini pickup truck. If I kept it, I would have to rust proof a lot of the exposed metal. The tires are all worn funny on this car and the front end sounds like it is about to fall out of the thing. Maybe I should take it to an alignment shop to see if the unibody is destroyed or not.

How rebuildable is an engine in this condition? If I went to that trouble, I would probably want to put that in the good car.

Also, does anyone see an issue with running synthetic oil? I assume that it should be fine and is what I run in anything from a cheap push mower to my other vehicles, one of which is pushing 300,000 miles and runs like new. The cheap "disposable" push mowers also run like new year after year so I am a big fan of synthetic oils. I found several sites suggesting 5W30 for the Geo G10. Does this sound ok?

Thanks,

Conor
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Woodie
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5W-30 is the recommended oil weight. Synthetic is always better.

G10's are almost always worth rebuilding, the bottom end is rock hard, rarely any problems.
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cwatkin


That is good to know. Considering the only thing wrong with this is that it is likely worn rings and this burnt valve, I would say that this is a good core for rebuilding. It isn't like a rod has come through the side of it or anything and it does still run.

Thanks,

Conor

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Measure everything before ordering any parts for your engine.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

cwatkin
Jul 21 2012, 09:45 PM
Is there a place to post pictures on this forum? Seriously, I need to post pictures just to see if this one is worth making a running vehicle or not.
The tires are all worn funny on this car and the front end sounds like it is about to fall out of the thing. Maybe I should take it to an alignment shop to see if the unibody is destroyed or not.

How rebuildable is an engine in this condition?

Also, does anyone see an issue with running synthetic oil?
You can post your pictures in this thread if you wish or in Member's Rides and link it here. Member's Rides are usually for showing off however.

Here is the how top post pics thread; http://geometroforum.com/topic/1322668/

Given a choice, with the help of the forum, I'd rebuild my engines now. I originally got engines off eBay and installed them. Single post of engine rebuild links.

I run synthetic oil and have since I got my Geos. I use Mobile 1 bought at Walmart..

One thing about putting so many miles on dirty oil is going to be a clogged Oil Pressure Relief Valve. Accessed by removing the oil pan. Run - No Run Mystery Solved
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cwatkin


Here are some pics of the cars:
http://s1145.photobucket.com/albums/o505/cwatkin/1994%20Geo%20Metro%20Project/

Do you honestly feel the camo beater is worth fixing? If not, I will definitely keep some important parts such as the engine core for rebuilding, some tires/wheels, ignition/computer components, window glass, etc.

As for a machine shop, I guess any could rebore/re-hone the cylinders. I would also go with stainless valves as I guess they hold up longer. For now, I plan to run the good engine and see how it does over time. The PCV will be replaced today and the EGR will be cleaned out soon. I already started but need to get a flexible brush.

My main concern with the new engine is that the air cleaner had been rigged and some dirt and sand bypassed and is in the throttle body. How much has gone through the engine and caused wear is anyone's guess but we will see. The mount from the other engine will be used for the new air cleaner. I did put conventional 5W30 Valvoline Nextgen oil in (it was on sale) but plan to run a lot of cleaners through the engine and likely won't run this oil long. I will see how it looks after this cleaning and likely go to synthetic at that time. I personally like Castrol Edge but any full synthetic would be great.

What else besides Seafoam and Marvel Mystery Oil treatments are suggested for an engine that might need some cleaning? Is there any way besides compression testing to determine the condition of the valves and if one is about to go south? I may also slowly suck in some water through a vacuum like to help decarbon the valves, head, piston tops, etc. If compression is good, can I conclude that the valves are fine or could the numbers still be good and then one just let go?

Thanks,

Conor
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cwatkin


I was able to lift the engine out of the junker car all by myself today so it is sitting out as of now. I am not a huge guy (150-160 lbs) but am wiry and strong for my size. I am still amazed I was able to pick up and carry a car engine all by myself without all that much effort. What do these engines weigh? This one was complete with alternator, water pump, etc.

I will likely swap clutches (hope the alignment tool isn't hard to find) as I can tell the clutch on the good engine is a lot older. The clutch on this engine was working great but why not switch if the other one is BRAND NEW? I may also yank the main pulley when reinstalling or just wait until my special order water pump and timing belt arrive and then pull all those other parts off so it will be easier install the motor and then install the new ones in the car.

Thanks,

Conor

I am going to finish treating rust and rust proofing the good car before reinstalling as it is a lot easier without the engine in the way.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

IMHO You have a good plan going.

My engines were shipped on a pallet at 110 pounds.

Posted Image Hacksaw's install. Posted Image Mine.

Frame horns can be welded, panels replaced, painting done with a can or roller and you can make the camo beater into something respectable.

Johnny's Ecomudder: http://geometroforum.com/single/?p=670979&t=4526891

Posted Image

And someone's show truck....

Posted Image
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cwatkin


I am going to get rid of the camo beater so if anyone wants it before I strip it down, let me know.

Conor
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