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Brake pads, is there a difference?
Topic Started: Aug 6 2012, 10:10 PM (1,319 Views)
metromizer


I give the Bendix Titanium Metalic II's a big :thumb

When I first got my '96 Metro,50k miles ago, the brakes were one of the many things that were neglected by the previous owner. I replaced the front pads and rotors, with what I thought were premium pads. They worked better than before, but barely what I would consider adequate. I thought they bed in over time, but was never satisfied with the stopping power.

I read the forum, no one was really impressed with Metro brakes. I guess the first generation Metros are really underbraked, by some accounts. I've just lived with it.

Normally not a big deal for most metro eco-drivers, like myself, keeping off the brake pedal at all costs... but I commute 70 miles one way through the San Fransisco Bay Area, with some pretty nasty stop and go traffic sections. Cruising along at the speed limit, then brake lights, then down to an almost stop in little time. I really have to leave plenty of room with marginal brakes, but in this California big city commute traffic, any more room than 3-4 car lengths is quickly filled by another car.

On Friday the wear scrapers started making that ever familiar noise, so I pulled it apart, and bought new pads. I went to a local AP chain, that had several choices in stock, unlike O'Reilly's that only had a cheap set in stock. I wanted some brand that included the steel shims that I like, and as aggressive a pad as possible. The typical organic set cost $19 set, then they had a couple of options in the $40-$50 range, so I went with the Bendix Titanium Metalic II's at $49/set. P/N MKD451IQ

I just got back from a test drive. After 'bedding the pads in', I made a couple of mock panic stops...

Whoa!!!! Holy cow these things stop on a dime and give you a nickle change! Same rotors, just new pads.

I give the Bendix Titanium Metalic II's a big :thumb
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JellyBeanDriver
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When I did my brake upgrade, I put in Axxis Metalmasters. WOW! I have phenomenal brakes now. So comforting.
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Geo Glenn
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What's in your engine?

Nice. Let us know how your rotors hold up to the pads. :popcorn

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Thart10


Geo Glenn
Aug 6 2012, 11:42 PM
Nice. Let us know how your rotors hold up to the pads. :popcorn

I use my 90 Geo LSi 4DHB for Pizza Delivery, so Braking is a Premium I can't skimp on. Too many fools think the street is a playground. On my other delivery cars, I've opted for cheaper pads that wear out faster to save the labor of replacing rotors more often. The OEM pads stopped the Dics from turrning just fine, but the 155 x12 tires weren't worth a shyt on a little water. I went up to 185 60R 13's. Steering, Grip and Handling are much improved. The jury is still out on Wet road braking because of the Drought of 2012. However, the OEM style replacement Pads I installed along with NEW Rotors, before mounting the wider tires (Same OD as 155 x12's but about 9 lbs heavier per unit) just can't seem to stop the rotors now, unless I really stab the pedal and it takes greater effort to bring it to a rolling stop. This may sound counter-productive, but actually works to my advantage because I can come to a more controlled STOP, FASTER, because the wheels don't lock up and start skidding. Plus, as long as the wheels are turning, you always have the option of STEERING out of a situation, rather than helplessly skidding into it.
I might try some of the high end Carbon Metallic or Ceramics, just to see what I can get out of them.
These Rotors are cheap and easy enough the R&R, so this might be a good trade up, performace wise, and take some of the EFFORT out of normal Braking. Covering 100 to 200 miles of CITY driving in 6-8 hours, with a 5 Speed, w/o Power steering, any effort I can reduce, is a blessing.
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Woodie
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Thart10
Aug 7 2012, 03:50 AM
The OEM pads stopped the Dics from turrning just fine, but the 155 x12 tires weren't worth a shyt on a little water. I went up to 185 60R 13's. Steering, Grip and Handling are much improved.
The only reason the brakes seemed adequate before is because there is not a 12" tire available that has any grip at all. As soon as you put decent tires on a GEN2 Metro, you discover just how inadequate the brakes are. I wouldn't drive one further than it took to get it home after buying it, GEN3 brake upgrade is a must.
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GeoPete
AAS Auto Technology past ASE Master Tech

Changing brake fluid every 18-24 months is a must on any car.
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Johnny Mullet
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Hi-Tech Redneck

I use the Wagner Thermo Quiet pads. Around here, it's not a matter of the pads wearing out, rather the rust unbonds them way before that.
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

Woodie
Aug 7 2012, 04:16 AM
Thart10
Aug 7 2012, 03:50 AM
The OEM pads stopped the Dics from turrning just fine, but the 155 x12 tires weren't worth a shyt on a little water. I went up to 185 60R 13's. Steering, Grip and Handling are much improved.
The only reason the brakes seemed adequate before is because there is not a 12" tire available that has any grip at all. As soon as you put decent tires on a GEN2 Metro, you discover just how inadequate the brakes are. I wouldn't drive one further than it took to get it home after buying it, GEN3 brake upgrade is a must.
damned skippy, woodie. :D

at the minimum, the improved vented rotors and larger calipers from the vert, turbo3, and mk4 metros are required on any metro i put into service. no 12" tires on my hoopties, either.

12" tires are impossible to find in any quality, 13" tires are getting really hard to find. i've jumped to 14" rims just so i can run decent tires. i'm also keen on the bigger swift gt tokico brake calipers and heavier rotors for the front.

i've had so many metros that came with warped solid front rotors. the harder brake compositions, metallic pads, and the ceramic and kevlar pads, etc. require a lot more heat to be effective. generating the heat to make the hard pucks work well will also twist the metro's solid rotors into knots in short order.
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DesmondGhostRider
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Is that a challenge?

we had a mini van for a while. It would take forever to brake. I finially convinced my dad to let me put the expensive pads on there and he takes it out for the first time and the car stops dead 3 car lengths faster than he expected and he almost got rear ended. was pretty funny. Usually its worth the extra cash.
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Norby
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Sometimes, people can blame brake pads when really it's the master cylinder going bad. Every car I buy always gets new rotors and the most aggressive pad (for street use) I can find. In the past I opted for the Axxis Metal Master as mentioned already, but it's getting hard to find anymore.
I just noticed I can get EBC Greenstuff pads for my '95 Metro, may try these if there are good reviews out there from current users:
Link to EBC retailer
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Khaney01
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Hillbilly at large
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I'm getting the stuff together to do the brake upgrade on my 93. Im going to 95 model components and saw the EBC green stuff pads available online and was curious about them. Not much is available locally so ordering pads is no big deal but I'd like to get something good.

Best place to order for price and speed of shipping?
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bansheetaz


GeoPete
Aug 7 2012, 06:11 PM
Changing brake fluid every 18-24 months is a must on any car.
I double thumbs up agree with this one. Ive bled systems that didnt even have air in them and it made a huge difference just by getting good clean new fluid in there. Fluid gets neglected a lot. Most folks just Slap in pads and go but you can tell a big difference just by flushing out old fluid.
Edited by bansheetaz, Dec 9 2012, 12:13 PM.
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Mr Murf 59
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t3ragtop
Aug 7 2012, 06:53 PM
Woodie
Aug 7 2012, 04:16 AM
Thart10
Aug 7 2012, 03:50 AM
The OEM pads stopped the Dics from turrning just fine, but the 155 x12 tires weren't worth a shyt on a little water. I went up to 185 60R 13's. Steering, Grip and Handling are much improved.
The only reason the brakes seemed adequate before is because there is not a 12" tire available that has any grip at all. As soon as you put decent tires on a GEN2 Metro, you discover just how inadequate the brakes are. I wouldn't drive one further than it took to get it home after buying it, GEN3 brake upgrade is a must.
damned skippy, woodie. :D

at the minimum, the improved vented rotors and larger calipers from the vert, turbo3, and mk4 metros are required on any metro i put into service. no 12" tires on my hoopties, either.

12" tires are impossible to find in any quality, 13" tires are getting really hard to find. i've jumped to 14" rims just so i can run decent tires. i'm also keen on the bigger swift gt tokico brake calipers and heavier rotors for the front.

i've had so many metros that came with warped solid front rotors. the harder brake compositions, metallic pads, and the ceramic and kevlar pads, etc. require a lot more heat to be effective. generating the heat to make the hard pucks work well will also twist the metro's solid rotors into knots in short order.
I know you run bad ass turbo engines. But are you able to spin up 14s with out loosing torque or power?
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Mikey9999
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Delusionally qualified

bansheetaz
Dec 9 2012, 12:12 PM
GeoPete
Aug 7 2012, 06:11 PM
Changing brake fluid every 18-24 months is a must on any car.
I double thumbs up agree with this one. Ive bled systems that didnt even have air in them and it made a huge difference just by getting good clean new fluid in there. Fluid gets neglected a lot. Most folks just Slap in pads and go but you can tell a big difference just by flushing out old fluid.
I agree. There are way too many people out there who think 20 year old fluid performs as well as new. I had to replace a slave cylinder on my first van, that taught me the difference fresh fluid makes. Since then a brake flush is something I do when I buy a car or van.

Same goes for antifreeze. Here in Florida I don't worry about freezing, and plain water conducts heat better than antifreeze. But antifreeze is also anti-rust, anti-boil, and water pump lube. A mix of about 50/50 is necessary whatever the climate.
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

the 14" wheel with lower profile tires (i like to run 185/60 14 tires) have a diameter which is very close to the 13 rim and 70 series tires.

i have no problems running 14" wheels and tires. also, it's a necessity when using the gt calipers which are considerably bigger lumps to fit into the rims.

i ran 14" suzuki 7 spoke wheelss with front and rear gt disc brakes all summer using a basically stock g10 engine. i had good performance, good mileage, and super braking. i ran 70+ on the highway on the way to geopalooza and still got over 40 mpg.

the gains in braking for effect and component life from using the 13" conversion with parts from a vert is so worth the effort involved in the swap. the ventilated front rotors won't instantly warp at the first hard braking maneuver like the base model solid rotors. the braking control is way better with the vert brakes, too.

it's the first upgrade i do to a base model metro i plan on driving for any length of time.
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