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| Replaced water pump, now barely idles, timing issue? w pics; Car won't run right after replacing water pump | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 12 2012, 11:04 PM (2,004 Views) | |
| MarkyMayhem | Aug 12 2012, 11:04 PM Post #1 |
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Hello everyone! first post! I've been speaking with Geo Glenn [what a nice guy!!] as I've been getting this geo back on the road, but my timing belt snapped on my honda DD, and as it's an interference engine, and 22 years old w. 317,XXX miles, I dumpped it and am going all Geo! OK, so I got the geo on the road, 30 miles later the water pump seized. I replaced the pump today and put everything back together, and I am having some issues. The main issue is, it won't run right, barely idles etc and I think I am one tooth off on timing somehow. I have attached some diagrams of what things looked like. Before I loosened the tensioner, I used a sharpie to draw across one tooth of the top sproket, the timing belt, and the top back timing cover. I also drew the same on the bottom sproket and a mark on the lower case. This would be illustrated by diagram 1. Now, I didn't remove the timing belt to get the old WP out or the new one in, I just sorta manuvered the belt. I was pretty darn sure I didn't move anything timing related. However, after I got the tensioner back on and tight[er] than it had been, I noticed that although the marks on the sproket and the belt still lined up perfectly at the top, the mark on the back case was a little off from the other two marks. I checked the bottom sproket, and everthing lined up what looked to be exact, i.e. the belt/sproket mark was dead on, as on top, and the mark on the case seemed to be dead on as well, unlike the top case mark. this would be diagram 2. I put it off to the case flexing or something, and put it all back together. it barely idles, I can get it to rev up sometimes but mostly it wants to idle and sound like it's missing, or just die, especially if I try to give it gas. Did I get the timing off a tooth? Second issue - I didnt' put all the timing cover bolts in, and this may be my issue. I noticed last thing that the cover was barely touching the pully on the new water pump. anyway, the alternator / waterpump belt [brand new] was squealing like crazy at any but the loosest of settings. Also the WP pully didn't seem to turn as freely as it had off the car, but I think that is drag from the timing cover. anyway, the belt just screams, and when turned off was HOT and sticky feeling on the ribs, like it was slightly melted! Almost like something wasn't turning right - hopefully the water pump pully. The reason I am a little freaked is this: MY HUGE BONER! When I put the crank pully back on, I neglected to notice the index pin, I just tightened things up with what seemed like no trouble. When it didn't run right, I of course took everything apart again. the crank pully didnt want to come off when I unbolted it. That was when I realized that I had slightly cracked/dented the pully where the pin was, and slightly flattened the pin, although the steel pin got the better of the deal. took the pully off, hammered the dent flat, and SLIGHTLY enlarged the index hole so it would fit nicely with the SLIGHTLY widened & shortened index pin. I can't see how it would possibally be causing a problem, but... thanks in advance, and then some! -Mark diagram 1 ![]() diagram 2
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| evmetro | Aug 12 2012, 11:19 PM Post #2 |
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Sounds like you may have disturbed the timing somehow. I would go back in and forget your pen marks and use the ones that are original |
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| jfsjr | Aug 12 2012, 11:40 PM Post #3 |
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MetroJoe
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I've had this problem also on my 98 3/5. 1) make sure the radiator is completely full. 2) you may need to pull the positive battery cable off the battery and ground it. This resets the ecm and then it may take several days of driving for the ecm to relearn everything. After 3 days mine finally started working working right again.
Edited by jfsjr, Aug 12 2012, 11:40 PM.
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| MarkyMayhem | Aug 12 2012, 11:46 PM Post #4 |
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Hmm well the radiator may not be DEAD full, as I drained everything before swapping out the pump.. but I'm pretty sure it is.. also, mine's OBDI, so the ECM is pretty basic. Just unhooking the battery resets it, and as far as I know, OBDI doesn't do much 'learning' I am leaning towards a timing issue. The fact that the marks I made on the bottom ALL lined up, and the marks I made on the top, only the belt and sproket marks line up EXACTLY, I think somehow the upper [cam] pully moved a tooth on me while I had the tensioner off |
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| crankcase | Aug 13 2012, 12:23 AM Post #5 |
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Hi MarkyMayhem, welcome to the forum I vote for being off a tooth on the timeing also. This happens quite a bit, despite being careful. I speak from experience. I have seen many Metros with slots worn in the timing belt cover from the belt rubbing. It too seems to happen despite being careful, but it doesn't take lone for it to stop (wear a groove). Perhaps it has something to do with bolt tightening order on the cover? Not sure about the pully damage , does it wobble or have any play in it? I owuld check to see if the timing is off a tooth before worring about the pully. Edited by crankcase, Aug 13 2012, 12:27 AM.
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| evmetro | Aug 13 2012, 01:17 AM Post #6 |
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I have installed my belt as per the marks, but after rotating the motor a few revolutions it is off a tooth. Be sure to rotate you motor with a ratchet to make sure your marks are still correct. |
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| MarkyMayhem | Aug 13 2012, 07:13 AM Post #7 |
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OK, so the consensus seems to be timing. Sure seems like a timing issue. One thing, per my drawings - when I thought about it, I didn't see any way the top marks could be aligned on the sprocket and belt, and off on the case while the bottom marks where all lined up perfectly. I put it off to something on the case flexing, or sight inaccuracy on the bottom, as the edge of the case is much further from the sprocket down there. If that is in fact possible, as per my diagrams, would someone please explain how that could happen? I think I mentioned I didn't take the belt off. Could I have set the tensioner to tight or something? I'm pretty sure it's not to loose. what is the procedure for setting/installing the tensioner? OK so it seems like I need to take the belt off and set it manually. I will re-read one of the many excellent threads on the topic posted here, one quick ? though - which way should I be turning the crank / cam when I align them? clockwise or counterclockwise? When I was taking the bolts off the crank pully, I rotated the engine a bit in both directions. Is that bad? Thanks again! Edited by MarkyMayhem, Aug 13 2012, 07:14 AM.
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| MarkyMayhem | Aug 13 2012, 07:20 AM Post #8 |
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Thanks for the welcome! As for the crank pully, it seems fine to me. The pin on the lower timing gear kinda dented it and cracked it near the edge, sort of. Once I put it to an anvil and hammered it flat you can't tell anything happened except on the back is a little circke indented in the pully, just the size and shape of the hollow index pin! As for play or anything, none that I can see. the slightly opened hole fit the slightly smashed index pin perfectly. What's weird though is the screaming WP/alt belt. It was getting HOT after very little run time, like the ribs felt sticky hot. that one's got me. maybe the timing cover not being bolted all the way down like I mentioned? seemed like the WP pully was touching the cover, last thing I saw before I quit for the day. |
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| clarkdw | Aug 13 2012, 08:20 AM Post #9 |
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The alternator/waterpump belt needs to be way tighter than you ever think it should need to be. Otherwise they scream on start up. See if you can find a Gatorback belt. They seem to stand up pretty well to the demands. That being said: I had a bad alternator bearing that caused squealing on start up for a little over a minute then the engine seemed to gain another cylinder once the bearing warmed up. It would all of a sudden release, the belt would stop squealing and there would be tons more power. All would be fine till the engine was allowed to cool down. Once I replaced the alternator the problem completely disappeared. Edited by clarkdw, Aug 13 2012, 08:21 AM.
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| MarkyMayhem | Aug 13 2012, 08:29 AM Post #10 |
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Hmmm mine didn't scream when it had it WAY looser than I ever though [still turned the WP & alt though, we're talking 1/2"+ deflection] Only when I tightned it up also - my distributor bolts that allow for dizzy timing setting have a weird star shape head, any ideas what size that is so I don't have to buy several? Thanks everyone! 1PM central or so today I should be able to get by where the car is and mess around some more -m |
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| clarkdw | Aug 13 2012, 08:53 AM Post #11 |
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That is a Torx head. Go to the hardware store, ask for two M8 X 1.25mm X 25mm long hex head bolts and then remove the originals with a pair of visegrips. Install the hex head bolts and enjoy using your existing tools. |
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| cwatkin | Aug 13 2012, 09:25 AM Post #12 |
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I suspect the timing is off. I did much the same things during the replacement of many parts while I was swapping engines in my Geo. My case was more severe. I was using the wrong mark on the cam sprocket and seem to have had the engine 180 degrees out of time. I had no indications of trying to run such as popping or backfiring so I knew something was REALLY off somewhere. I was hoping for timing and not something else more major and got lucky. The reason mine was so out of time was that I changed the cam and crank seals on the engine and had to remove the sprockets. I ended up turning them a bit while removing and installing the sprockets. Conor |
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| MarkyMayhem | Aug 13 2012, 02:23 PM Post #13 |
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Just pulled it apart, reset the timing, and started it with naught but the timing belt installed, and the crank pully to hold it on. Forgot the #1 spark plug, and it still ran better than yesterday. Installed the plug, and it ran better yet. gonna go get a new 8mm [i've ruined 3 from those $5 cheapie sets already] and try putting it all the way back |
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| MarkyMayhem | Aug 13 2012, 03:41 PM Post #14 |
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Well damn. Buttoned it all up, and a) the WP / ALT belt is SCREAMING, and melting. The WP pully is NOT touching the timing cover. And the b*t@$ won't run. it SEEMED like it ran fine before I put anything but the crank pully on. Now, when I started it, it fired right up, but then as it ran it got worse kind of, or after trying to run it, it just putzed out. now I am right back where I was. I am pretty darn sure the cam/crank sprockets are not moving on me and the belt was nice and tight, but not to tight and keep in mind it ran fine before I went to put the WP on. ARGH! Done for today OK tools put up for the day.... It seemed like it ran better with the #1 plug out, crank pully off etc. then it did buttoned up. And better yet with all the plugs in and nothing but the crank pully installed. For some reason, it seems like it goes to hell once I put the timing cover on and the alt/WP belt. HELP! Edited by MarkyMayhem, Aug 13 2012, 04:09 PM.
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| 490k | Aug 13 2012, 04:17 PM Post #15 |
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For starters, you need a manual. When you put tension on the tensioner pully (the 3rd little one) you have to remove all slack from the other side of the belt. It's not difficult, but you have to have the timing marks on both pulleys in the proper position. Marks on the belt are useless as they don't wind up in the same spot after you rotate the engine. |
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, does it wobble or have any play in it?

9:35 AM Jul 11