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Replaced water pump, now barely idles, timing issue? w pics; Car won't run right after replacing water pump
Topic Started: Aug 12 2012, 11:04 PM (2,003 Views)
MarkyMayhem


Oh I have a manual, the haynes. And I've pursued the threads here ad nauseam. However, I don't recall reading anywhere about removing slack from the straight side of the belt - I'll have to check that when I tear in to it yet again tomorrow.

Today I removed the timing belt, and lined up both pulleys with their marks. I removed the #1 plug, and used a pencil to feel that the cylinder was at the top. When I put it all back, it still barely runs. Could I have located TDC for #1 on something other than the compression stroke and still have the engine run? If so, how to prevent next time? I will likely be alone, so putting a finger over the plug hole while rotating may be dificult.

My boner for today, I didn't rotate the crank/cam with a socket two rotations or whatever and check to see if my timing marks still lined up.

Still out of time?

And WHY is the alt/WP belt SCREAMING and getting so hot? ribs melty hot? not tight enough somehow? There's more room for adjustment on the alt. bracket, but I'd be hard pressed to get it much tighter without someone to press on the alt. with a stick or something while I tighten the adjuster.

Thanks all!

-m
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crankcase


Ideas for things to check:

Screaming belt:
Try to verify the alignment of pullys.
Make sure belt rids in the middle of all pullies.
New water pump should have some resistance, but turnable by hand.
Clean pump pully with solvent and wire brush (where belt rides).
Double check key on pump pully.
Push hard on belt with finger, try to get about 1/2 inch deflection for a ballpark judge of tightness

Running poorly:
Verify you have not pulled a vacuum hose loose. Look for any loose hoses.
Could you have been top dead center on exhaust stroke (rotor pointing to plug wire for cylinder in question = ok) ?
Verify top dead center and location of rotor (should point to #1)
Double check plug and coil wires.
Try tooth to either side of of your mark before you put it back together.
Edited by crankcase, Aug 14 2012, 12:16 AM.
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evmetro


The rotations I suggested are not necessary, but I am amazed at the number of times that I find an error when I do verification rotations. I also like to fire it up for a moment for verification before assembly. It will start without the timing cover and outer belts. I am probably a little paranoid, but everytime I button things up after disturbing or potentially disturbing my timing I know for sure that it will run.
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Old Man


MarkyMayhem
Aug 13 2012, 11:35 PM
Oh I have a manual, the haynes.
isnt it the Haynes manual that shows the firing sequence wrong? I cant seem to find
the thread that shows this
EDIT: found the pic:
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/BadBent/Repair%20Pics/firingorder2-1.jpg
Edited by Old Man, Aug 14 2012, 01:38 AM.
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MarkyMayhem


RE the belt:
The belt was in the middle of the pullies, WP turns freely, alt turns freely
I'm sure there's no rubber on any of the pullies, but I'll clean them when I take it apart again
If I put it on there pretty loose it doesn't make any noise, but it's WAY to loose, I know.
what do you mean by Key on the pump pulley?
EDIT - when I first went to bolt the Alt to the new WP, I couldn't get the bolthole part of the alt to fit past the bolthole on the WP - they were hitting each other by a mm or two. I just loosened the back bracket/adjuster bolt a good bit and it all lined up fine after. when looking at it straight down while running or not, it LOOKS aligned

re running like heck:
Checked the hose diagram first thing, it's good, but I'll check the EGR hoses again, before I started driving it [and before the WP seized] I seafoamed the intake [with my own homemade seafoam] and also dripped a bit of my naptha[95%]/TCW3[5%] mixture down the vac hoses that go to the EGR [engine code 51] etc. The engine code is gone, and was after I reset things after cleaning. My point being, the ends of the vac hoses on the EGR did get lubricated slightly from the TCW3 component, maybe one slipped off..
I COULD have been TDC on the exhaust stroke. Guess I need to take the dizzy cap off when aligning everything thing to verify rotor pointing to #1
Edited by MarkyMayhem, Aug 14 2012, 08:07 AM.
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MarkyMayhem


Old Man
Aug 14 2012, 01:31 AM
MarkyMayhem
Aug 13 2012, 11:35 PM
Oh I have a manual, the haynes.
isnt it the Haynes manual that shows the firing sequence wrong? I cant seem to find
the thread that shows this
EDIT: found the pic:
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/BadBent/Repair%20Pics/firingorder2-1.jpg
Printed that pic off the forum Sunday! I haven't used the manual much if at all. It says to take the valve cover off to do the timing belt....
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MarkyMayhem


One more thing I forgot to mention: The timing belt looked relatively new, and the tensioner looked newish and spins fine with no drag or anything, so of course I decided to reuse them.

Now I read on the forum that most people when installing brand new timing belts I am assuming even with the tensioner off can barely get them over the sprockets, using soap and a mallet etc.

Mine slipped on the sprockets with no trouble. Not loose enough when installed to be just hanging off the bottom sprocket or anything that drastic, but fairly loose. With the tensioner installed, it doesn't auto-adjust itself fully out or anything, and the belt is plenty tight, no chance of jumpping a tooth IMO
Edited by MarkyMayhem, Aug 14 2012, 08:04 AM.
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clarkdw


There is lots of confusion about timing belts.
First: When you set the crankshaft to the tdc mark on the sprocket there is no compression or exhaust stroke. All it means is that #1 piston is at the top of it's stroke. Now you set the position of the camshaft and distributor as a unit. When you set the camshaft so that the marks are lined up on the cam sprocket and the valve cover the valves are now in the closed position and the distributor rotor is lined up with the #1 position on the cap. NOW cyl 1 is on the compression stroke.

You could just as easily set the camshaft 180 degrees opposite. In other words with the mark at the bottom and opposite the mark on the valve cover. In that case cyl 1 would be on exhaust but still correct because with one more full revolution of the crankshaft the piston would be back at the top and the cam/distributor would have rotated 1/2 a turn and be exactly lined up correctly.

As far as tension on the timing belt. The belt is a positive drive toothed belt and requires much less tension than most put on it. That is why the light spring is there. Install the belt, leave the bolts on the tensioner loose, turn the engine over several times by hand to allow the spring to do its' thingand then tighten the bolts on the tensioner and spring arm to lock it up. My belt is loose enough that I have the tensioner at full stroke and I can still remove and install the belt without even loosening it off. I run the engine up to redline regularly with no problems.

The alternator belt cannot be tightened enough with your hand to prevent squealing. You need to use a prybar of some sort to get enough tension.
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490k


MarkyMayhem
Aug 13 2012, 11:35 PM
Oh I have a manual, the haynes. And I've pursued the threads here ad nauseam. However, I don't recall reading anywhere about removing slack from the straight side of the belt - I'll have to check that when I tear in to it yet again tomorrow.
Under the "Installation" heading:

"20 Slip the timing belt onto the crankshaft sprocket. While maintaining tension on the side of the belt opposite the tensioner, slip the belt onto the camshaft sprocket. yadda, yadda, yadda

If you never did a TB replacement, you should read the instructions 2-3 times before even picking up a wrench. It's not hard but there are things you have to pay attention to.

I can do them in my sleep now.
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MarkyMayhem


About to dig in again, thanks for the advice clark & 490!
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MarkyMayhem


OK the timing WAS out. I lined up the cam before taking the belt off, looked at the crank and it was 2 teeth off.

Getting it back right, I lined up the cam mark opposite the down pin with the top of the cover mark, and peeked in the dizzy.
the BACK of the rotor was pointing at #1
If I lined it up with the other timing mark, the metal part of the rotor is dead on #1

? - should I then use the other timing mark?

EDIT
Went ahead and lined up using the mark everyone says to use. Put the crank pully on started up and it's running right! woohoo!

I think I went wrong in a) I took the tensioner off, put the belt on, then put the tensioner back on before
and b) I skipped step 20, making sure there is tension on the straight side of the belt.

I'll button it up and hope it still works![/b]
Edited by MarkyMayhem, Aug 14 2012, 11:48 AM.
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crankcase


Good job, glad to hear you got it running.

The "Double check key on pump pully" was not accurate.
The intention was that the pully be on flush and aligned.
Maybe your belt is too loose. If it is slipping it will get hot.
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490k


I haven't done one on a Metro that old. But in the manual, for the CRANK the keyway should be at 12:00. The CAMSHAFT pulley has 8 large holes and one smaller hole, the smaller hole should be at 12:00. Line those up, put the belt on having tension on the NON tensioner side, adjust the tensioner and you should be good. Just check everything by rotating the CRANKSHAFT CLOCKWISE (pulling DOWN on the non -tension side of the belt) after 1 or 2 rotations just line up the CAM mark, if the crank is lined up you're all good.
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MarkyMayhem


Damn lost my post!!!!

It's fixed! the timing was out, runs like a dream now. I think I went wrong in not instaling the belt as per #20 from the haynes manuall, "20 Slip the timing belt onto the crankshaft sprocket. While maintaining tension on the side of the belt opposite the tensioner, slip the belt onto the camshaft sprocket.

Next issue is the ever=present frame rust in those 'frame horns' where the the tie rods poke through. Not as bad as many, or even most I would guess. But bad enough. I've read up on a variety of threads from here and different places on potential repair options....
I have access to a machine shop, and a very good welder [the guy and the machine]
Any suggestions?

And - THANKS A MILLION TO EVERYONE WHO HELPED AND CHIMED IN!!!!!!!!

-m
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