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Oil farts seem the worst yet! Burning lots of oil! - Time to wave the white flag and do a rebuild?; Blasted some really long, bad oil farts out today and used lots of oil.
Topic Started: Sep 15 2012, 07:46 PM (1,571 Views)
cwatkin


My 1.0 which has experienced some oil farts in the past seemed to experience oil farts anytime I went up a hill today. I pulled over to check/add oil after a couple of the really bad ones and was down at the low mark on the dipstick. I drove 200 miles and burned 2 quarts so I seem to be burning excessive oil and those behind me can barely see the highway! The car seems to run great and have plenty of power when not blowing out miles long smoke clouds. The compression came in good when I checked it last so what is going on? I think it must be a blowby issue as the engine only does this when under load going up long hills. The thing has plenty of power until the oil farts come and then it starts stumbling.

If anyone notice a little black Metro fogging I-44 between Rolla and Springfield, MO today, that was me. The funny thing is that I had a really obnoxious tailgater behind me and I tried my hardest to get it to oil fart right into the front of his car and it wouldn't do it! DARN! Downshifting definitely reduced the issue although I could have easily pulled the hills in 5th gear.

I figure that with a clean PCV and EGR, this has to be blowby related. The oil has also gotten quite dark and quickly so this supports that. I don't know what the symptoms of the check valve are but this is definitely a combination of load and RPM. Going up even the slightest incline at the speed limit will result in a blast of oil but not immediately. The oil must have to fill up the valve cover over a period of time to really blast out into the intake. Also, if you hit a flat spot and the smoking stops, then you quickly hit another uphill, the smoking will start up almost immediately.

Here is another question. I can either rebuild the engine in the car or the spare engine that has a burned valve (one from this car originally).

The advantage of using the spare engine is that I can continue driving ole' smokey during the rebuild and the original engine would go back in the car (not a big deal to me but I know some people like that). This engine was definitely burning oil and smoking at all times when I had it running, plus #3 valve was burned so it is likely the more neglected of the two engines although it has 30k less miles.

I figure the running but oil farting engine is likely cleaner inside due to all the oil changes/flushes with Seafoam and MMO, etc. and does run pretty well when not blowing smoke so maybe this would be the better one to rebuild. The problem is that I wouldn't have the car to drive during this time.

Anyone have suggestions as to which one to use for my rebuild? Is there anyone such as Glenn selling all the parts needed for a good rebuild as a kit? I see his list of individual components but how about a kit for the entire engine and/or ones for the top and bottom end. I would likely do this over a month or two period so separate kits wouldn't be the end of the world.

Thanks,

Conor

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Norby
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I would rebuild the spare cylinder head, and rebuild the engine block in the car. Wow, 2 quarts in 200 miles. That gets expensive quick.
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clarkdw


I would rebuild the spare engine and change it out when done. My reasoning is this. If you rebuild the spare engine and it needs more than just rings you can get it bored and order new pistons while you limp along on the present engine. You definitely can have it ready to install with minimum down time. You can refresh the oil pump, check bearing clearances on the crank and rods, change water pump and all seals and know for sure that it will last a long time.

If you choose to rebuild the one in the car the minimum down time will be enough to pull the pistons, rering, install a head that you have rebuilt from the spare engine. At least as long as changing a complete engine. The crank bearings and rear main seal won't get checked and you may need to change the water pump as well. Now, what if the cylinders in the engine in the car really are worn or you have a broken or cracked piston? :shit The downtime is now going to be a lot longer.

I know that sometimes it seems like a lot of money to spend to rebuild a complete engine but G10's are sooo cheap compared to most other engines. Only three of everything and if you need to do the whole shebang it will be less than $1k for the rebuild including machine shop charges. Then you will have an engine that will be dependable with proper maintenance for many years and deliver mileage better than any $500/month payment new car.
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cwatkin


I like the idea of going ahead with rebuilding the spare engine altogether. It sounds like the worst it could need is new pistons, a bore/hone, new bearings, etc. along with the typical rebuild stuff like rings, gaskets/seals, etc. If I do all the work myself besides stuff like boring which needs to be done at a specialized machine shop, what should I expect the total cost to be if I completely redo the spare engine with all new parts? I would want to use quality parts, not just some deal off eBay that seems like a good deal. I understand valves are the weak link on the G10 so wouldn't want to skimp on those for sure. I see plenty of kits like these http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=geo+metro+engine+rebuild+kit&_sacat=0 on eBay but are they any good? I would like to get parts that are quality and meant to last? Also, I have heard that the oil pump on these is bullet proof. Do they really need to be changed as they look very simple?

Will a slight increase in displacement due to honing change anything related to power, fuel requirements, economy, etc.?

Thanks,

Conor
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clarkdw


Quote:
 
Also, I have heard that the oil pump on these is bullet proof. Do they really need to be changed as they look very simple?


When I said refresh I meant clean up and check.

I am sure others will post up preferences as to what parts to use.
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Old Man


I would put in a direct pressure reading oil guage so that I could monitor the oil pressure just before the "pharts" to see if the oil pressure relief valve is operating properly.------
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redpepe


hi cwatkin,

sounds like you've lived with that problem for a long time ... what a mess! there are lots of details i don't know but i'd try a new head gasket before committing to a rebuild. it solved my post-rebuild problems and it's a relatively quick cheap change. i'm guessing your second engine is a rebuild that used a small holed head gasket. good luck.
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cwatkin


Yes, this has been an annoyance for a long time and I thought maybe I could solve it. I would like to try checking the oil pressure before considering it a done deal. How should I do this and what is the acceptable range? Also, could something have jammed the check valve?

This definitely has a lot to do with load on the engine and not as much high RPMs. I really think it must be blowby related. I may also try checking compression one last time since the problem has gotten worse.

From looking at the car I got the engine out of, I seriously doubt that this is a rebuild but will check the numbers to see if they match which would be a sure giveaway. Can you take a coat hanger or similar and put it down the drainback holes to enlarge holes in the head gasket?

Either way, I am just about ready to start taking the spare engine apart in preparation for a rebuild while limping along with the current motor.

Conor
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starscream5000
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Got 70 MPG?

Old Man
Sep 15 2012, 11:14 PM
I would put in a direct pressure reading oil guage so that I could monitor the oil pressure just before the "pharts" to see if the oil pressure relief valve is operating properly.------
I didn't think of that, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the culprit.
Take your spare engine's oil pump and fully disassemble it, clean it, and put it in your car. This shouldn't be more than a weekend day's worth of work to take the old oil pump out and put the other one in.
Make doubly sure you clean the oil pressure relief valve after you remove it from the pump.
The pressure relief valve gets gummed up over time when people don't change their oil on a regular basis.
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clarkdw


I went through a lot of similar problems in large overbore Mini Cooper engines in my race car. It would fill the valve cover with oil and not allow it to drain back. It was caused by bore flex not allowing the rings to seal.

The fact that it is load related rather than rpm related says to me that oil pressure is not likely the problem but blowby is. You have run enough MMO or Seafoam or whatever through your engine to be pretty sure that the possibility of freeing up stuck rings is gone. It comes down to a rebuild of this or the spare engine.

I have a suggestion to help buy enough time to allow you to rebuild the spare while you nurse this one along. You need to disconnect and plug your pcv valve temporarily. Plug the PCV valve and the hose that goes to the air breather. Vent the valve cover to atmosphere but do it through some sort of catch can. A clear bottle is best so you can see if it is collecting oil. On my race car I also had a 1 inch external pressure balancing hose from the oil pan up to the valve cover vent. This allowed the pressure between the pan and the valve cover to equalize so the oil was able to drain back to the pan. I have seen at least one case where pulling the dipstick out a little so it was not sealed and allowed the blowby to vent to atmosphere was enough to prevent trapping the oil in the valve cover. A catch can with a drain hose allowing the oil to drain back down the dipstick tube is another possibility.


Basically you need to allow the lower end of the engine to get the blowby gases out without flowing so much air up to the valve cover that it stops the oil from draining back and pulls it into the intake.

I don't know if enlarging the head gasket holes with it in place is a possibility but pulling apart your spare engine will quickly give you a good take on whether it is.

A rather environmentally unfriendly fix will get you enough time to do the spare engine right. Just don't get complacent if you find a solution that seems to cure the problem because there is only one sure cure and I think you know what that is.
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cwatkin


Yeah, I am not really thinking it is anything but a complete rebuild done right at this point. If I put the car in neutral and revved it up for a while and got no smoke, I wouldn't think this was oil pump related as at would be pumping just as much but there would be little load on the engine. I may try this.

Also, it seems to be related to the duration of the load. Long hills are bad so I guess it takes time for the VC area to fill with oil. Yes, these are slight hills and if I try to maintain the same speed in 5th gear, I can expect smoke. I could go faster with no load in 5th gear on a downhill and get no smoke. This all points to blowby in my opinion. It is time to teardown one of the engines. I plan to start with the spare and work on the head. If there is something serious wrong, then I can switch to the current engine.

Conor
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cwatkin


I tried something else today and figure it might be a temporary solution and more environmentally friendly than pulling the PCV system apart. I have been adding some 10w40 that I have sitting around. After adding about 1 2/3 quarts to replace what I had burned over a period of time, I am no longer getting smoke blasts, no matter how hard I try. I have always heard people suggest putting in a grade or so thicker oil to prolong the life of a worn out engine. I am sure this isn't the best for the valves but seems to have solved the oil fart issue for now. It at least must be better on the valves than continually running raw oil through the cylinders.

I am guessing the thicker oil is allowing the rings to seal better. I wondered if it might make the problem worse as thicker oil would take longer to drain back but I guess not.

Conor

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clarkdw


Sometimes a simple solution is the best. Glad that it works. :cheers
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cwatkin


I still figure this is a temporary solution and may cause other issues, especially lifter related problems. Either way, I plan to run thicker oil until I get the other motor rebuilt, oitherwise I will do the "catch can" trick with disconnecting the PCV. If the problem comes back, I may test the blowby theory by removing the dipstick a bit.

Thanks,

Conor
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Shinrin
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You can run a catch can and pcv. I had mine setup so the massive oil went into the can, and the vapors could still circle back into the pcv.
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