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The great oil debate; A tale of two engines.
Topic Started: Dec 2 2012, 07:36 AM (1,813 Views)
robertino
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Hmm... :hmm
As a mechanic I can only tell you from my experience on working on high end cars what I have seen over the past years. Some engines do better with Synt vs Regular oil. If you change your oil religiously every 5000 miles like they recommend, you'll get the results as on the Toyota : if you tend to stretch it then your engine will look like the Nissans. BMW-Ferrari and those cars that are considered high end tend to ask for Synt oil (Oddly Lexus does not?) Corvettes I know do and I think the Viper did.
Yes Synt is better but if you are a person who's regularly doing the maintenance (Especially changing the air filter) you'll get by with regular oil just fine ! ^o)
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clarkdw


One personal anecdote and a comment.
Way back in the stone age I was building and racing Minis which are one of the most difficult engines to keep together in a race car mostly due to them using the engine oil pan to house the transmission. The same oil is used in both. I used what was considered the best oil available, Castrol R Castor bean based oil meant for race engines. Bearing replacement was on a two hour runtime schedule. At that point the bearings were trashed. Improving the filtration system helped somewhat but the bearing life was still very short.

When synthetic oils appeared there was certainly nothing to lose by switching over for a try. After the usual 2 hrs the bearings still looked new. After some experimenting the useful engine bearing life was found to be about 8hr and at that point they were still usable but scoring from the transmission swarf ended their life.

This is only my experience and I very strongly believe that today's dino oils would be much better than those of my early racing days. I think that many of the claims of how bad dino oils are and how good synths are find a basis in anecdotes like this. Comparing today's dino oils to those of years ago would probably end in the same sort of comparison.



Now my comment:

Certain members of the forum condemn oils that do not meet their particular criteria of acceptability and make it known in strong terms their dislike of those oils and scorn for anyone using them. Having a background in the VW/Audi area of the auto industry will tend to make one adopt this point of view. You can blame the oil but when it is only a limited number of brands of automobiles that show this problem it makes you wonder.

From: http://www.topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/813-vw-audi-oil-sludge-class-action-settlement

Quote:
 
Volkswagen and Audi have agreed to pay sludge-related maintenance costs for nearly 480,000 vehicles as part of a proposed class action lawsuit settlement preliminarily approved in federal court. All current and former owners and lessees of certain Audi A4 model years and Volkswagen Passat model years are eligible to file a claim for the class action settlement.



The VW and Audi oil sludge class action lawsuit alleged that the 1.8 liter turbo engines in 1997-2004 Audi A4s and 1998-2004 Volkswagen Passats were overly prone to the formation of oil sludge and coking deposits. These deposits cause engine performance to deteriorate and cause abnormally high incidences of engine failure even when maintained according to the manufacturer’s maintenance recommendations. The class action suit further charged the auto companies with failing to honor an 8-year unlimited warranty extension issued in 2004 by denying claims brought by vehicle owners with sludge-related engine failure. The extended warranties were offered by the auto companies after they began receiving consumer complaints about the sludge problems in August 2004.



The class action settlement affects all current and former owners and lessees of 1997-2004 Audi A4 models and 1998-2004 VW Passat models with 1.8-liter turbocharged engines. As part of the settlement, VW and Audi have agreed to cover 100 percent of the maintenance costs for owners/lessees who have proper documentation of required oil changes, and 50 percent for those without proper documentation. The class action settlement also provides owners and lessees eligibility for a 10-year/120,000 mile enhanced oil sludge warranty. In addition, all class members who currently own or lease the covered vehicles will receive revised oil maintenance recommendations.
Read more at http://www.topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/813-vw-audi-oil-sludge-class-action-settlement#7zcCwMZT9Pc2LDmO.99


My choice, whatever brand name synthetic that is on sale in the viscosity I want and a good quality filter (oversize) on a 10k mile schedule. My driving is almost all highway and the car is run for over an hour almost every time it is started.
Edited by clarkdw, Dec 3 2012, 11:36 AM.
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Horn


Eh, change the oil at its regular intervals and the engine will last a long time. Doesn't matter if you use dino or synthetic.
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snowfish
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Basic GearHead

Horn12007
Dec 3 2012, 11:46 AM
change the oil at its regular intervals
But "regular" will be different depending upon use. :hmm One size Does Not fit all. :cheers
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Horn


Again, I've argued before that how the hell do you know what a previous owner ran?

If I had a new car than yea I probably would, but when every car I buy has 150k, its not really worth it....
Edited by Horn, Dec 3 2012, 12:07 PM.
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HelterSkelter
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#1 Pizza Driver

Horn12007
Dec 3 2012, 12:06 PM
Again, I've argued before that how the hell do you know what a previous owner ran?

If I had a new car than yea I probably would, but when every car I buy has 150k, its not really worth it....


so if you had a car that didn't really need the more protective oil you would give it to it but if you bought a car that needed the extra protection you wouldn't give it to it?

a car at 0k miles needs the added protection less than a car at 150k. also i don't understand what the big deal is. you change oil every 3k miles and it only costs like 4 or 5 more dollars per quart to get really good synthetic over regular conventional, at 4 quarts that's only 20 bucks. say you have to change oil every month and a half. that's nine times a year. that's not even 200 bucks more per year. not even noticeable.
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Horn


$200 per year is very noticeable for me. Thats almost 1 month of rent and utilities for me.

And I don't change my oil every 3k, It just gets changed when I feel like its time. It could be 3k or 5k. Not the best way to do it, but I've seen so many engines that use regular oil that have ran a very long time.

On top of that, I usually sell my cars before the end of their life.

You can argue with me all you want, but it wont change my mind.
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geojojo
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I'm studying automotive technology in college and one of my classes included learning about oil, According to the recent studies, Mobil one rates at the top with castrol and valvoline at second best and everything else is just oil...
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Cobrajet25
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The main problem with motor oil is not the oil itself...it is what it gets contaminated with over the course of thousands of miles inside a hot, churning engine with thousands of dirty chemical explosions happening every minute.

Carbon, water from condensation, unburned fuel, metal shavings, etc, are what causes oil to sludge up and damage engines. The oil itself, dino or synthetic, really does not break down much at all. Some proof of this is the "recovered" eco-hippie oil they sell nowadays made from re-refined used oil.

Posted Image

Of course, the re-refined oil still costs the same as new oil...sometimes MORE. :hmm

Newer engines run much cleaner than older engines did, so these contaminants are much less of a problem. Consequently, the oil change intervals for newer vehicles have become longer. Some manufacturers recommend 10k oil changes and don't require (or even recommend) synthetic oil. This is why.

As long as you keep the oil CLEAN, which oil you use doesn't really matter all that much. And if you let it get really DIRTY, well..it ain't gonna matter much then, either.
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Woodie
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clarkdw
Dec 3 2012, 11:33 AM

Certain members of the forum condemn oils that do not meet their particular criteria of acceptability and make it known in strong terms their dislike of those oils and scorn for anyone using them. Having a background in the VW/Audi area of the auto industry will tend to make one adopt this point of view. You can blame the oil but when it is only a limited number of brands of automobiles that show this problem it makes you wonder.

BIG SNIP I cut the above to pieces in the interest of brevity, but my oh my, what a lovely post.
Quote:
 
My choice, whatever brand name synthetic that is on sale in the viscosity I want and a good quality filter (oversize) on a 10k mile schedule. My driving is almost all highway and the car is run for over an hour almost every time it is started.
:gp

Please note that he's not doing short trips, for those of us who drive a car A LOT, this is plenty.

Edited by Woodie, Dec 4 2012, 05:26 AM.
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490k


JellyBeanDriver
Dec 2 2012, 11:21 PM
None of my cars look like that Nissan in your picture. That isn't a story about synthetic vs dino, it's about never changing your oil.
+1

I have metros with 300000 that are cleaner than both using crap oil. I just change it often.
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sphenicie


this is what i learned form a real life experiance.

back about 15 years ago, my wife was driving a chev cav. in cold weather, zero and below, it was almost impossible to start.
this was caused because the engine would turn over slow, but the tbi would not recognize this and continue to supply fuel at the normal rate for starting. instantly flooded. step to the floor and hope the battery holds out long enough. put the charger on it, call in late to work.

enter synthetic oil, that engine never had that problem again. even at 30 something below, that car started right up.

i'm sold.

the cost of synthetic oil has not really come down as was expected. we have run it in the wrangler (mobil-1) since the odometer flopped 10k, at 225k now still good.
to help with the $42 oil cost i have streached out the duration between changes. from new it was, religously 3k. now its 10k. i have noticed that the oil is coming out just as clean as at 3k. i believe this is from the long term use of the synthetic, which has a very high 'detergent' type value.
my thought on streching out the miles between, is that if the oil is still coming out pretty clear,ok. further, the wear at 225k that might be incured is on an aged engine, as a percentage.

i also run it in the snow blower, its much easier to pull over in the cold. we have had it about 20 years. tuff years at times, for two years i did not have a plow truck, 1/4 mile drive, 60 inches avrage snowfall. Ariens builds a great machine, but i credit alot to synthetic oil.

my boss runs it in all the diesel fleet trucks. he said he dumped some on the camp fire and it hardly burned. i thought "ya right"... try it. then try regular oil.

EDIT: i still run regular oil in the mud truck, oil changes are often at an interval of only a couple hundred miles, due to submursion or whatever.
still run regular in the lawnmower, leaky wood splitter, and misc implements.
Edited by sphenicie, Dec 4 2012, 07:44 AM.
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rjsdotorg
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R E Member

Here is a good (if long) read: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Synthetic-oil

Advantages
The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:

  • Measurably better low and high temperature viscosity performance[citation needed]
  • Better chemical & shear stability
  • Decreased evaporative loss[citation needed]
  • Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown and oil sludge problems
  • Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.[citation needed]
  • Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.[citation needed]


Disadvantages
The disadvantages of synthetic motor oils include:

  • Initial costs are usually four times greater than petroleum-based oils, though at one time, man-made oils cost ten times more than petroleum[citation needed]. Initial costs are often mitigated by extended change intervals, which individuals may confirm through used oil analysis (UOA).
  • The lower friction may make them unsuitable for break-in (i.e. the initial run-in period of the vehicle) where friction is desirable to cause wear. As many vehicles now use synthetic oils as factory fill, this is less of an issue than it once was.
  • Potential decomposition problems in certain chemical environments (industrial use dominantly)
  • Potential stress cracking of plastic components like POM (polyoxymethylene) in the presence of PAOs (polyalphaolefins).
  • Potential on some older pushrod race engines with roller lifters for the roller itself not to spin with camshaft movement, but rather slide while the roller itself remains either stationary or at a lower circumferential speed than that of the camshaft lobe[citation needed]
  • In July 1996, Consumer Reports published the results of a two year motor oil test involving a fleet of 75 New York taxi cabs and found no noticeable advantage of synthetic oil over regular oil[4]. In their article, they noted that "Big-city cabs don't see many cold start-ups or long periods of high speed driving in extreme heat. But our test results relate to the most common type of severe service - stop-and-go city driving." According to their study, synthetic oil is "worth considering for extreme driving conditions: high ambient temperatures and high engine load, or very cold temperatures." [5] This research was criticized by some because most engine damage appears to be caused by cold starts, and their research method may not have included enough cold starts to be representative of personal vehicle use.[6]



And just to stir the pot - After reading about SRF years ago from a machine shop test here, I've used it in my van, and their anti sieze also: https://www.sfrcorp.com/product/testing/sfr-100-petroleum-oil-fortifier/
Edited by rjsdotorg, Dec 4 2012, 11:25 AM.
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Cobb
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:popcorn What happened to the saying oil never wears out it just gets dirty?
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rjsdotorg
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Some (all?) of the Dino oils do wear out/break down/evaporate.
The extreme example is WD40, designed to evaporate and leave a gummy sludge behind - not for lubrication.
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