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| camshaft timing?; car won't start after tuneup & cam switch | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 6 2013, 04:40 PM (2,614 Views) | |
| pizza guy | Feb 6 2013, 04:40 PM Post #1 |
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New Member
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So I was delivering pizzas, and I snapped my timing belt. While I had everything open, I figured I would replace all of the gaskets on that side (most were leaking) and upgrade to an xfi camshaft. It took forever for the cam to come in, but that gave me plenty of time to: -Cleaned oil pump and replaced gasket -Cleaned oil pan/dipstick assembly and replaced gaskets -Replaced water pump and gaskets -Replaced timing, alternator and A/C belts -Replaced spark plugs with new E3s -Replaced valve cover gasket -Replaced distributor gear case gasket When my camshaft finally came in, it was from a '92 or earlier (mine's a '94), and had the square teeth. So i had to go back and buy a new alternator belt. I installed it and put everything together. It started right up, but ran pretty rough, so I knew my timing must have been slightly off (adjusting ignition timing helped, but wasn't enough). It was pretty late, so I headed to bed. The next day I read that I should have drained my lifters. So I took it apart again to change the timing and clean the lifters. By then, my new distributor cap gasket had come in, so I installed my new distributor as well. I put everything back together except the alternator and A/C belts. I know I can't run it long without them, but I wanted to make quick adjustments to the timing until it was right. By then, my battery was dead, and would not hold a charge, so I replaced it too. I have now tried setting the cam up to 10 degrees from the gear's timing mark in 2 degree intervals in both directions. Then I slipped off the belt, rotated the crankshaft 360 degrees, and tried each position again. Even trying 22 positions, I can't get it to start again. I took the air intake off, had my wife crank the car and saw gas coming from the injector. I pulled a spark plug and held it close to the block while she cranked, and I got a spark. Yet it still will not start. Please help me so I don't have to have it towed to a mechanic! Edited by pizza guy, Feb 6 2013, 04:47 PM.
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| patrickbruce | Feb 6 2013, 04:49 PM Post #2 |
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average teenage gearhead
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remember the xfi cam has a 6 degree advance built into it... also, make sure the teeth on the cam sprocket and the crank sprocket are the same |
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| snowfish | Feb 6 2013, 04:54 PM Post #3 |
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Basic GearHead
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Welcome PizzaGuy! What engine are we working on?
Do you have an adjustable timing gear? I'd start at ground zero.............. crank indexed to timing mark cam sprocket at zero cam dowel straight down with cam sprocket indexing mark aligned with valve cover notch. Double and triple check everything. It will start and run.
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| texan821 | Feb 6 2013, 05:12 PM Post #4 |
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I am no longer a member
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One time, not too long ago, I had the exact same problem (except the teeth). I'm still not 100% certain what it was that caused my issue, but the most obvious answer (in my situation) is the lifters. I pulled mine out, cleaned them, lubed them, reinstalled them and had ZERO compression...because (I assume) I had lubricated them too liberally and had actually caused them to sieze. Ultimately the lifters were replaced and a stock cam was installed instead of the 3tech regrind...and that's when she was brought back to life. Since then, the cam has been tested and it was not the issue...this is why I am fairly certain my issue was lifters. My recommendation: Do a compression test. If you're not getting any compression, it's likely because something is not right with the lifters. If you do not have a compression gauge, try shooting compressed air into the cylinders and see if it will hold. If it holds air, it's probably your timing...if it won't hold air, it's likely the lifters. Hope this helps...and welcome to the forum dude. Glad to have you here
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| texan821 | Feb 6 2013, 05:14 PM Post #5 |
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I am no longer a member
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I know this is a lot to read, but this is the thread I had going when I was dealing with my problems. http://geometroforum.com/topic/4899475/1/ |
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| 91 ragtop | Feb 6 2013, 07:05 PM Post #6 |
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And make sure the top and bottom gears have the same style of teeth. Ken.......... |
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| pizza guy | Feb 7 2013, 12:27 AM Post #7 |
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First, I would like to thank everyone for the warm welcome. Tonight I drained my lifters, checked every connection for the fourth time, and tried to start it with both timing marks aligned (and rotating the crank 360 degrees and tried again). It still won't start. To answer everyone's replys: -My metro is a '94 base model -The teeth on my camshaft are the squarish kind from an early '93 or before, but my crankshaft has the more rounded teeth for my '94. However, I have watched it while it cranks, and they do not slip. Even after trying to start it 4 or more times in a sitting, when I rotate my crankshaft back to TDC, my camshaft returns to the indexing mark as well. This makes me believe that the gear difference isn't the problem, but I could try pulling the cam gear off my old cam and installing it on the XFI cam, so they are both the rounded style. -Since my cam is off a stock XFI, I doubt it is an “adjustable timing gear.” -When I installed my lifters, they felt “spongy” (they would compress about 1/4” pretty easily.) When I installed them, I lightly lubricated the outside contact surface with a moly-graphite assembly lube. -I have not done a compression test, but I can try to borrow a tester from a local auto parts store to report later. -I read most of the posts to texan821's problem before creating my own post, which was a huge help in figuring out things to try. I will try to get through the rest of it before I go to bed tonight. I'm guessing I probably have a compression problem, but if anyone has any other suggestions, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you all for your help! |
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| pizza guy | Feb 7 2013, 02:15 AM Post #8 |
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So after spending an hour and a half re-reading texan's thread and all of the side links, I have found two things that I missed before in my sleep-deprived state (I've been doing most of this work after pulling 12 hour days, and working on the car until I have only a few hours left to sleep for almost a week straight) 1- The crankshaft cannot be 180 degrees out, so I don't need to bother rotating it a full revolution and retrying. 2- Although my lifters were every bit as clean as the ones in the youtube video I watched, they still weren't half as clean as Snowfish gets them. That and I definitely used more grease than he does. The outside had only the slightest gray sheen of grease, but it was definitely more than a drop. I'm going to have one last cigarette for the day and begin what I hope is my final teardown before I finally get this thing running again. I'm only working a half day tomorrow, so I should have time for a vigorous cleaning and a compression test by the end of the day. Wish me luck, and thank you all again! |
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| snowfish | Feb 7 2013, 09:29 AM Post #9 |
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Basic GearHead
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Align the belt like this.![]() and all will be great! Some pictures, of yours, would be nice. Best of luck Sir!
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| cwatkin | Feb 7 2013, 01:20 PM Post #10 |
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Yeah, you can have the crank 180 out and the marks line up but the car won't run. I had this happen during a timing belt change once. It isn't a big deal and won't hurt anything. Also, the mismatched timing set MAY WORK and not slip, etc. but I wouldn't trust the car like this long. I would have to assume this will wear the timing belt funny so instead of getting 60,000 miles out of it, you may get 6,000 miles out of it! Find a matched sprocket for your crank, otherwise you are possibly in for a roadside timing belt change pretty often. Geo Glenn gave me a procedure for draining lifters. I am not sure what the tool is called but I bought one at Autozone. It looks like a clamp and vise grips combined. You adjust the width of the opening by turning a screw just like vise grips. I used black electric tape around the jaws as to not mess up the lifters. Also, he suggested numbering the lifters and keeping them in the position they came from in as they wear into the valve and cam on which they ride. You engine will click like mad for a few minutes once you get it started until the lifters fill back up. Geo Glenn also suggested changing the oil at this time as much of this "first fill" oil in the lifters will be there a LONG time. I used a European spec synthetic when I did mine. Conor |
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| pizza guy | Feb 7 2013, 07:59 PM Post #11 |
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So I'm home from work, and back at it. -My timing has been aligned like Snowfish's picture at the beginning of every timing attempt, and then I have tried adjusting my cam from there. -I have taken my lifters apart again for cleaning. I found that the mini-cupcake container from my youngest son's 1st birthday was the perfect size. With 12 slots, I could put each one in order, with a space for each set of internal parts too! I'm going to soak them until after dinner and give them a good scrubbing. -I borrowed a compression tester on my way home, so if it still won't run, I can post compression figures. -By "The crankshaft cannot be 180 degrees out," I guess i really meant that exhaust/compression stroke is decided by the cam, so there's no point in me removing the belt, rotating the crank 360 degrees and trying again. -I changed the oil when I removed the oil pan/pump/etc. However, I plan on doing another one shortly after getting it running to remove all the gas I've dumped in the system. I guess my only question until I put it back together and try to start it again is will my old cam gear work on the XFI cam? I still have the belt for the rounded teeth if it will, or I can try to find a squared crank gear if it won't. I'll take some shots as I put it all together, so you can all double check my work if it still won't run. I have to admit, I was about hopeless when I first posted yesterday. But with all the advice and support, I once again feel like this task can be accomplished. Thank you all so much. Edited by pizza guy, Feb 7 2013, 08:01 PM.
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| Stiffchezze | Feb 7 2013, 09:25 PM Post #12 |
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Sir Metrologist
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You CANNOT have the cam 180 out. No way, no how. ----------
This makes NO sense to me. ![]() Are you referring to the timing belt? The alternator (or alternator belt) has NO effect on engine timing. You need to make sure the cam gear teeth matches the crank gear teeth. Yes, your old cam gear will work fine with the XFi cam. There is no reason to switch them in the first place. Put you old one back on if you didn't change the timing gear on the crankshaft and make sure you are using the correct belt. This could be some of your problems!Your compression test will tell you exactly what is going on. Do it as soon as possible. Edited by Stiffchezze, Feb 7 2013, 09:37 PM.
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| mikeallen2112 | Feb 7 2013, 10:24 PM Post #13 |
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I think maybe when cwatkin was talking about the crank he meant make 100% sure it's actually at tdc on the compression stroke?
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| pizza guy | Feb 7 2013, 10:34 PM Post #14 |
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Whoops, I did mean timing belt, not alternator belt. |
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| pizza guy | Feb 8 2013, 02:05 AM Post #15 |
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So I cleaned my lifters, lightly lubricated them, switched cam sprockets and timing belt, put everything back together, and it still won't run. I used the compression tester, and it read 0 on all three cylinders. I'm getting pretty tired, so I will have to verify the tester tomorrow. But as promised, here are the pics.![]() Perfect lifter soaking tray. ![]() Valve cover off, cam aligned, and distributor pointing up. ![]() Cam still aligned with valve cover back on. ![]() Crankshaft aligned at TDC. |
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What engine are we working on?


Best of luck Sir!

Put you old one back on if you didn't change the timing gear on the crankshaft and make sure you are using the correct belt. This could be some of your problems!




2:28 PM Jul 11