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| Minimum Wage? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 13 2013, 11:14 PM (2,138 Views) | |
| Horn | Feb 14 2013, 09:23 PM Post #31 |
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IMO, even at $21/hr you still shouldn't be looking at $200,000 homes. The reason people have to take out 30 year loans is because they don't live under their means. You can blame it on taxes. I will blame it on the new 60% tv, $100 cable bill, brand new vehicle you just purchased, buying the new ipad and iphone and having a $100 phone bill just to yourself, and putting a bunch of money on credit cards and not paying it all off at the end of the month.....but taxes definitely don't help either. The difference between going from a 15 yr loan and a 30 year loan is a small amount each month. People take out 30 year loans because they "feel" like they are saving money each month. 1 small calculation can show you this.....or hell go to a financial manager and give them a few hundred dollars to manage your finances if you are that bad. NEVER EVER take out a 30 year loan unless......it has the lowest interest rate, you pay it off significantly early (5, 10, 15 years) AND it doesn't hurt your credit. If you are dumb enough to take out a 30 year loan, that is the person who takes out the loan's fault. Nerys your 140% interest is over the life of the loan. The interest amount is 4 - 8% probably, but when 95% of your first year's payments goes to interested and 5% goes to principal, its gonna take a while |
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| Coche Blanco | Feb 14 2013, 09:29 PM Post #32 |
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Troll Certified
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21 dollars an hour is 42k before taxes, not enough to be looking at 200k houses, imho. |
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| Cobb | Feb 14 2013, 10:02 PM Post #33 |
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BANNED
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What happened is that Johnny and Mary date while in college, they finish and get a few degreees. THey get married. Johnny got a job as a Jr banker while his wife works for another bank or business as a junior associate. They make x and hope to make Y once both are promoted to managers if not Senior employees. They buy a house they can squeeze into. After a few years or even less Mary takes off to care for the kids, Johnny becomes a senior associate, but he is shuffled around and no longer gets comission, but gets a raise. The income for them drops as Johnny lost his 2 grand a month extra and only got a dollar raise. Without Mary working, they are loosing another 3-4 grand a month. Furthermore the kid costs x amount to care for. They hope for the best and as the ARM starts to adjust they cant afford their home any more. Thats just one example, I know people making 2-3 times what I make who have their priorities messed up and wont afford their home too.
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| Vkhelldog | Feb 14 2013, 10:06 PM Post #34 |
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I wouldn't look at a 200k house and I make more than that. Point is I want my iPhone damnit but I also apt myself and move up rather than collecting welfare or minimum wage... Lots of good points made here, socialize utility, nationalize distribution! Indeed!!! Agreed our entire government seems designed to keep the rich rich and the poor poor, and it's sad I'm considered poverty level with a "skilled trade" journey level" yet still I'm poverty??? What the +#[=]* I may be a bit tired and not making full sense by now...
Edited by Vkhelldog, Feb 14 2013, 10:08 PM.
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| Horn | Feb 15 2013, 12:18 AM Post #35 |
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See, buying luxury items is ok.....You have certain priorities and if you can afford them great! Its all about priorities and living within reason. Just because you make more money doesn't mean you have more money left over at the end of the the month. The problem is when everything is on a loan. Obviously house and car purchases are on a loan....but you never know how much money you will make in x amount of years. Just live under your means and you will be fine....except little do. They live right up to their means and just break even each month. I don't want to live that way. Screw that. |
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| Horn | Feb 15 2013, 12:18 AM Post #36 |
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| 2000Firefly1.3L | Feb 15 2013, 01:03 AM Post #37 |
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Where we live is the most un-affordable in the world. Vancouver houses start at 600,000K for a crack house |
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| Cobb | Feb 15 2013, 07:06 AM Post #38 |
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BANNED
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In America the new thing is to squat on a house of your choice that is banked own and stake your claim. I think someone almost said this, so Ill do it. If you got to worry about min wage you need to keep looking for another job or look in a mirror.
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| nerys | Feb 15 2013, 03:02 PM Post #39 |
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Grr
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I disagree. I am right and you are wrong because you forgot I had a PROVISO in that claim of 42k wage 200k home. NO direct taxation and NO usury in the credit system. lets do some math. $42k a year. what is your take home in my system? if that is a wage and not income your take home is $42k. now what is the monthly payment on a 15 year loan for a $200k home with PROPER non usurious interest. 10% actual (that is right actual interest is the only interest that matters since that is what you actually pay. period APR is a way of hiding the real damage to people so they can pretend its not as bad as it really is) lets continue. $200k means $220k with a fair interest rate. 15 years means $14,667 a year for your mortgage. if I did the math right (I am tired) that is only 28% of your earnings. that is WELL within reasonable a budget. (remember in my system NO property taxes NO school taxes NO direct taxes on a persons existance all built into the system and therefore LIMITED by what that system can bear instead of the effectively unlimited taxation we have now) now take away 40% of that persons earnings in direct taxation and another 28% in interest on that home then YES your right. they can not afford a home. but ONLY because of the taxation and the usury. remove both of those and a $200k home purchase is a VERY reasonable purchase for someone making $42k a year. especially if they live within their means. they can go even higher if they live tight and careful. stop telling me I am wrong and put your cash where your mouth is IE post numbers. I did. |
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| 5speed4me | Feb 15 2013, 04:36 PM Post #40 |
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New Member
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Glad to see there are so many fellow libertarian-minded people here. I suspected as much as libertarians tend to be minimalists with good money management skills and the Metro fits that to a tee. |
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| nerys | Feb 15 2013, 05:16 PM Post #41 |
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Grr
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I do tend to lean libertarian simply because it makes sense. I want to live my life and be left the heck alone. pay my fair share YES be enslaved NO. taxes built into prices is paying my fair share because I RETAIN some say a vote. I vote by spending less when it costs too much. direct taxes is enslavement. its as simple as that and it disconnects the "welfare" of the population with taxation. this is why our recessions are so bad and require so much input to fix. we do poorly and government RAISE TAXES which makes us do worse kills any recovery and makes the government do even worse and then they raise taxes again. the dimwits just won't accept that they must LOWER taxes even REMOVE them to fix the problem. god forbid if the people realize that lower taxes and less spending on wasteful stuff actually makes things better. wow what a concept. :-) problem is it would only make it better for US. it would not make it better for them. |
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| razr769 | Feb 15 2013, 05:20 PM Post #42 |
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Got boost?
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Just for reference, at my summer job last summer I was making $12 an hour +4% vacation pay being a temp at a car part factory. After taxes, it worked out to $10.25 cash per hour in my pocket (for 40 hours). |
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| Horn | Feb 15 2013, 05:35 PM Post #43 |
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Nerys. I never said you were "wrong".....I said IMO I think they shouldn't buy a $200,000 house......IMO - In My Opinion Nerys, you really need to stop putting unrealistic "provisions" on things. These "provisions" don't mean crap in the real world. Now, lets look at the loan. You are right APR does hide the real interest. Annual Percentage Rate. It will always be lower or the same than the APY or EAR. Annual Percentage Yield or Effective Annual Rate. APR is a nominal rate. lets call it "r"......here is how you figure out the EAR/APY out of APR (1+r/n)^n-1......the ^n means the power of how many periods that the interest is compounded a year. Usually monthly in a mortgage so n=12. Lets say they quote you at 5% APR. (1+.05/12)^12-1 = 5.12% EAR/APY.....your real interest. Now IF they were offering a CD. They offer it at APY to make it look good. So, $200,000 is present value....compounding periods = 12x15years = 180....Your future value will be $0 and you want to find out payments. Interest is 5% APR Lets say no down payment....FIXED LOANS Payment comes out to $1581.59 per month 15 years = Total amount paid...$284,686.20 Lets say 20k down payment. Your loan will be for 180k then 15 years = Total amount paid...$256,217.40 Payment is $1.423.43 Now lets look at 30 year loan The payment is $1,073.64 15 years = Total amount paid....$385,510.40 (20k down) pmt is $966.28 15 years = Total amount paid....$347,860.80 OK nerys, so lets go on your 15 year plan and the payment is $1581.59/month. That equals almost $19,000. That is 45%.......That IMO is more than what you want to pay for just a house payment. Yes it this person can afford the house but that does not include tax (since you want to live in fantasy land), improvements to your home, anything that you pay for inside your home, your car payment, property insurance, children (if you have any) and any other bills. So $200k DOES NOT equal 220k with fair interest rate! If a bank or investor will only get $20k from $200,000 over 15 years, they will not be happy or give out the loan. (I know, you will throw a provision in there about USURY crap, but this is real life.) So Nerys as you said, "stop telling me I am wrong and put your cash where your mouth is IE post numbers. I did." Again, lets finish this off. 1. I did not tell you that you were wrong. IMO. 2. You can't keep putting in "provisions" to make your argument correct. You keep putting in provisions so you can never be wrong. gets old. These "provisions" are not real life, so they are pointless other than to make you look good. 3. I gave you the $42k WITHOUT taxes, SO I actually partially applied your provision to make you happy! The 15 year $200,000 loan at 5% apr is 45% of your pay.....Just going to the loan. no other bills. Now, in real life, your take home isn't $42k after taxes so you will PROBABLY be in the 50 to 55% range. I wouldn't recommend someone putting half of their paycheck to anything (unless it is savings) 4. You numbers with "a fair interest rate" is not right. A "fair interest rate" doesn't tell me anything. It is subjective. I want a real interest rate! APR, APY, EAR, shit anything nerys that is a concrete number. 5. I tried not to use a ridiculously high or low interest rate. Also have to remember that if we give them a low interest rate, there is a good chance they have a good credit score, indicating they are good with their money. 6. My number is for the average american. Not the guy who spends $100 a day on beer, but also not the person who pinches every penny. 7. Again, YOU ARE RIGHT in the fact that it the person making $42k CAN afford it. The only reason I am arguing with you is because you said I was wrong (with your provision). I just showed you numbers why my opinion would be different than yours based on real life. |
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| nerys | Feb 15 2013, 05:57 PM Post #44 |
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Grr
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I can put in any provision I want. of course you don't have to agree with it just clarify that when you reply. and telling me something that is opposition to what I stated without explanation "IS" interpretable fairly as being told your wrong. 45% is too high I agree with that. 10% interest is a bit high but "fair" I would not call it usury. if the BANK was actually loaning and therefore risking its own money I AGREE 10% is not enough. but there NOT loaning me their money. their risk is almost zero. they quite literally conjure the money into existence via the fractional reserve banking system. so when they loan you $200,000 they are RISKING less than $20,000 of their own money "WORST CASE" and more realistically less than $2,000 of their own actual money. the rest is quite literally generated with my signature. this is how fractional reserve banking works. ours is 9:1 this means if I deposit $10,000 into the central bank (FED) I am now allowed to loan out 9 times that plus the deposit amount ie $100,000 just with that $10,000 deposit. and because our banking system is relatively closed and circular this is amplified many fold until $100,000 loaned out may actually only be secured by $1000 or less in "high power" money in the Federal Reserve. (this is the largest cause of inflation in the nation!!) I know it sounds crazy but this REALLY IS how our banking system works. Usurious interest might make sense when you have actual RISK but there is no risk here. in fact they MAKE the risk with the high interest rates. LOW interest with high common sense giving out loans would reduce defaults and increase payback. but then they don't get the insanely disgusting profits they get now. its quite literally legallized theft. there is a reason most major religions considered usury a sin. while I am not religious most of them are not stupid and they know usury ALWAYS 100% of the time ends bad for everyone except those doing the robbing. APR is NEVER fair since its compounded its by definition unfair. your paying over and over and over again. its why once I get rid of my credit card debt I WILL NEVER have another credit card ever again. in fact my 32%+ interest is PRECISELY WHY I can not pay down this debt. and they hit me with these 31 32 34% interest rates when my credit was 740-760 EXCELLENT credit. the reason? they knew I could not "pay off" in one shot so they knew there was NOTHING I could do about it. Because they can. and now I can NOT pay them off. its absolutely criminal the entire banking system. (most of my debt came when I was in school when I was doing better before I KNEW any better) and I HAVE to put provisions because those PROVISIONS "ARE THE POINT" of my argument. they are not a MEANS to make my argument THEY ARE my argument. its like arguing about geo metro's and saying you can't use geo metro's. Edited by nerys, Feb 15 2013, 05:58 PM.
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| Horn | Feb 15 2013, 06:22 PM Post #45 |
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Either way, I wouldn't consider the banking/loan system theft, since YOU agree to the loan. You could decide to save your money and buy a cheaper house, but YOU want to take out a loan, you really need to look at the contract. $200k is a lot not to look at . (YOU meaning the consumer, not you as in you personally nerys) I'm not saying 10% was a bad number...just in my example 5% APR or 5.12% EAR gave the 45% number which we both agree is too high. Now if I were to use that 10% as APR, we both know that it would increase the % of pay. All I'm really trying to say is that one can wish and hope and try to change taxes and all that crap, but the person taking out the loan has to look at the "current" conditions. The "provisions" don't matter to them. I think you are arguing for what you "could" afford with the "provisions" and I'm arguing what you "can" afford currently. Two completely different things. Of course I agree that no income/pay tax would obviously give you more buying power. |
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What happened is that Johnny and Mary date while in college, they finish and get a few degreees. THey get married. Johnny got a job as a Jr banker while his wife works for another bank or business as a junior associate. They make x and hope to make Y once both are promoted to managers if not Senior employees. They buy a house they can squeeze into. After a few years or even less Mary takes off to care for the kids, Johnny becomes a senior associate, but he is shuffled around and no longer gets comission, but gets a raise. The income for them drops as Johnny lost his 2 grand a month extra and only got a dollar raise. Without Mary working, they are loosing another 3-4 grand a month. Furthermore the kid costs x amount to care for.



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9:21 AM Jul 11