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Mystery plug after engine swap!; Orange and grey plug with two yellow wires, one tracer red/orange, one tracer black, may be related to idle speed motor??
Topic Started: Oct 1 2013, 04:31 PM (1,469 Views)
tonithetiger
New Member
[ *  * ]
So we recently pulled the excellent engine out of the rotting body of my mom's Geo Metro, which was a '93 3 cylinder 1.0 liter 5 speed, and put it into the body of a '96 with a bad engine. We switched the intake manifold and the thermostat housing from the bad engine to the good one, due to wiring differences. The problem with the bad engine was low compression, so the parts we used should be fine. manifold and thermostat housing gaskets are new, and they bot to the '93 engine perfectly.
Now the car starts and immediately stalls, and we are unsure what the reason is. Our biggest clue is that we have a mystery plug. It is attached to the part of the wiring harness where the plugs for the throttle body also branch out. It is a very long bit of wiring, likely 13 inches or better. It is two wires, both yellow, one has orange tracer stripe, the other a black tracer. The plug is grey outside with orange inside. The throttle position sensor plug is the same color, but the wiring is obviously different. We can't figure out where this plug goes, but it might be the problem. Anybody know what this thing is for?? I'll take a picture if possible. Crappy camera. :banghead HELP!!!
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David95237


Did you swap oil pans also? The 96 has a crank sensor in the pan. Also have to swap oil pump and timing belts and related pulleys
Edited by David95237, Oct 1 2013, 05:03 PM.
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

:gp

In order for an older engine to work in a 96+ body, you need to swap the intake manifold, distributor, oil pump, oil pan, crank pulley, timing belt, tensioner, and cam gear.
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tonithetiger
New Member
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We did swap the intake manifold, did not swap anything else. We figured out the Crankshaft position sensor was the mysterious plug, and it was lacking a home because of the different oil pan. Will it not function without changing the rest of the parts?
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

You will never get it running right until all items are swapped over.
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dayle1960
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Fastest Hampster EVER

It is a PITA to swap everything over, but it is very necessary. Words of wisdom from JM.

Do it once, do it right.

Welcome to GMF.
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matum
Fresh Fish
[ * ]
I too got caught by the mysterious gray and orange connector left over (not connected) after an engine and transaxle swap from a 93 Geo Metro to a 97 Geo metro, both with 1 liter engines and standard shift.
I did keep all the periphery stuff from the 97, including both manifolds, starter, alternator, A/C, etc, and later when I had trouble starting the car also replaced the distributor. After that, the engine worked just fine with the crankshaft position sensor connector disconnected. I did a little research given the comments on this forum referenced the high level of importance given to this connector and found out from the 97 Geo shop manual that the crankshaft position sensor is used for diagnostic purposes only to identify the misfiring cylinder should a misfire occur. This explanation made perfect sense to me given the flawless operation of the vehicle with the connector off, with the only exception being the engine light came on with the code corresponding to a faulty crankshaft position sensor, as expected.
Also, I removed the oil pan on the 97 engine, which was blown, and found out that the sensor connect to the oil pan and the engine block through a good size hole to accommodate the body of the sensor and a threaded hole for the retaining bolt. I doubted whether the 93 engine block would have these two holes for a non-existent sensor, and adding the holes to the block would be a machining operation too complex for my purposes, so I did not continue disassembling the 93 engine as recommended in the forum. And good thing that I didn't because the engine is working just fine. Just wanted to add my experience on this subject to perhaps avoid unnecessary work and expense to Geo owners who undertake similar engine swaps.
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Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

I would add that I have read several times that the crank sensor wires can be hooked into the cam sensor and pull a working signal from there.
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Woodie
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matum
May 15 2014, 05:04 PM
Also, I removed the oil pan on the 97 engine, which was blown, and found out that the sensor connect to the oil pan and the engine block through a good size hole to accommodate the body of the sensor and a threaded hole for the retaining bolt. I doubted whether the 93 engine block would have these two holes for a non-existent sensor, and adding the holes to the block would be a machining operation too complex for my purposes
That hole is actually in the oil pump casting, not the block. That's why we say change the oil pump and oil pan.
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Car Nut
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And for those of you living in emission inspection states... good luck passing with the check engine light on. Usually best to swap everything over & keep it as original as possible for the next owner or whatever. Interesting to know it will run without it tho. Who'd a thunk it?
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socal geo garage
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Metromightymouse
May 16 2014, 03:36 AM
I would add that I have read several times that the crank sensor wires can be hooked into the cam sensor and pull a working signal from there.
You must wake up some day soon please ,I notice how you like going around the forum contradicting people so I will be the first one to tell you to do some homework before you post,like the old saying think about it before you open IT ..... METROS DONT HAVE CAM SENSORS, if your thinking about a distributor not a cam sensor. if you are trying to educate someone then describe something other than layman's terms, can you do that? waiting :D
Edited by socal geo garage, May 17 2014, 07:12 PM.
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Memphis metro


Actually the pickup coil is referred to as a cam sensor in some publications.
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myredvert
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myredvert

Quote:
 
...do some homework before you post,like the old saying think about it before you open IT ..... METROS DONT HAVE CAM SENSORS, if your thinking about a distributor not a cam sensor. if you are trying to educate someone then describe something other than layman's terms, can you do that? waiting :D
Seems a little harsh considering that the FSM itself refers to it as just that. Do you mean to say the FSM is merely "layman" terminology and shouldn't be used as a common language to communicate information between Metro owners/mechanics? Assuming you did some homework before you posted and already knew that the FSM itself calls it a Cam Position Sensor, wouldn't it still be appropriate to acknowledge that fact and cut someone a little slack for using correct FSM terminology? ;)
'94 FSM
 
6E2-C1-7, Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor, Figure C1-11
"The camshaft position (CMP) sensor, located in the
distributor
, consists of a signal generator and rotor."
:news
Edited by myredvert, May 17 2014, 07:59 PM.
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Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

I do not just contradict people (Wait, is this a circular argument), and I generally stay out of things that I don't have personal experience with but in this instance I have read here several times where someone (not sure who just this second) describes taking the AC signal from the "cam sensor". I believe from their description they are talking about the signal from the distributor.

So, quick search, and I have this
Woodie
May 6 2012, 04:40 AM
All Metros have a cam sensor, the three cylinders are inside the distributor, the four cylinders have a little housing in place of the distributor that does nothing but hold the CPS.


me and my metro
Dec 1 2011, 12:01 AM
They all have cam sensors located in the distributor, if they have a distributor. The crank sensor is for the OBD2 cars and is used for the misfire monitor. This part of the Government mandated OBD2 equipment. This is why you have to change the oil pump and pan on a JDM replacement engine. They don't use crank sensors in Japan on their domestic Metros.


99metro
Jun 12 2011, 12:23 PM
Fun thread! I'm a bit late chiming in. A tip or two:
Crank sensor - If you don't have a crank sensor (just the engine connector) but have an old non-crank-sensor oil pan, just jumper the connector wires to the two small distributor wires. Done.


This one is particularly fascinating as it not only mentions a cam sensor but says he swapped it out and spliced the crank sensor wires into it to get it to run.
dmcdd
Oct 16 2011, 12:11 PM
Hi all,

I've been searching on here for a while, but haven't been able to pinpoint my problem based on other's posts. So, I'm typing my own :)

I've got a '96 1.0l metro that I bought in a non-running condition. Previous Owner swapped the engine and couldn't get it to fire up. When I crank it, it'll try to fire up, but then after about 5 or 6 sparks I loose all spark and fuel.

When it does spark, it's nice and blue.

Here's what I've done so far...

Tested and replaced the Coil, Igniter, Noise Suppression filter, Cam position sensor, Crank position sensor and ECU. Yeah, I have two of everything, thanks to the P.O. Each replacement got me no different results. There is no cork gasket on the oil pan. All wires involved in the ignition system are verified as a good connections using a continuity tester. CKP and CMP wires have grounded shields.

I put a new ground on the engine block direct to the battery. Checked the ground wire to the coil, it's good to go.

Watched the CMP and CKP waveforms on an oscilloscope. Good clean waves with voltage that meets specs from the FSM.

Hooked up an OBD2 scanner (Digimoto) and looked for codes - I got none. Sensors all work, but the RPMS read 0 when cranking.

So, I had an MSD 6A sitting around. I tried the white trigger wire hooked up to the orange wire on the igniter first - no change, it still tried to fire and then just kept cranking with no spark or squirt.

After that, I hooked it up by splicing in to the Cam Position Sensor as a magnetic trigger. Now it will start and run, very rough. When I hooked up the OBD2 scanner, I see RPMS of 12,800 (no, that's not a typo), and ignition advance on cylinder 1 of anywhere from 20 to 45 degrees. That's a pretty good reason for it to run rough ^o)

I'm thinking I really need to fix the root cause rather than to work around it with the MSD, but I've beat my head against the hood of this Geo for long enough that I've worn through the hood and gotten a calloused forehead.

Any ideas?


And last, from the OBDII code list: P0340 - CMP Sensor Circuit Malfunction
If I'm not mistaken, that would be a trouble code for a Cam sensor. Wonder why it has a code if it doesn't have a Cam position signal from a Cam position sensor.

Again, what I said was "I would add that I have read several times that the crank sensor wires can be hooked into the cam sensor and pull a working signal from there.". Clearly I did my "homework" and stated exactly what I knew. I also did not say that what had been suggested was wrong or not the right way to do it, I simply offered another option that I had read about.

As for any other posts where I "contradicted" someone, apparently just for the sake of doing it or starting an argument or something, I welcome specific examples. I am not so full of myself that I am not willing to admit when I'm wrong and I definitely don't go around the forum looking to start :shit. I do disagree with Mwebb, but perhaps you miss the fact that I've never said his way won't work. In fact I'm pretty confident it will because he certainly seems to know what the hell he's talking about and has done the testing to prove it. I disagree that a less restrictive exhaust will have the opposite effect and have stated clearly my reasons and evidence for that being the case.

Guess I'll go back to sleep now and turn on my contradictor machine so it can start disagreements for me.
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socal geo garage
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ok good glad to hear that.
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