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| engine non identification; unusual engine serial # | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 19 2013, 11:46 PM (843 Views) | |
| larcal | Oct 19 2013, 11:46 PM Post #1 |
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Hi all, Well, got me a 3/5 96 body with throttle body and supposedly some 80k on odometer that I'm not used to mechanikin on but thought I should start by joining forum and finding out year of engine. So looking in right place as identified here in old thread by "Gasoline fumes" and also in service manual. Left side of block at seam with tranny. Next to "993cm3" No letter after G10!, which is the year identifier. And not rubbed out either. Just a clear dash mark after G10 then 6 digit # So what gives? Transmission serial # is nearby and has the required T letter for 1996 Pretty worried about this as thinking maybe got an OBD1 engine in an OBD2 car. Car runs fine with good mpg but there are a few wire connectors I can't identify yet hanging around that are not connected to anything and check engine light allways on. Can't find a crank position sensor which the 96 and newer have exclusively and is supposed to be attached to oil pan or around it |
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| Woodie | Oct 20 2013, 06:53 AM Post #2 |
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I think the ones without a year letter are the Japanese take-outs. |
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| larcal | Oct 20 2013, 12:03 PM Post #3 |
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Thanks for the great resonses so far. Sorry for the double post as will deter reponders maybe but not my fault. Did get a double image when went to edit post. Not superimposed but sequential. Can't erase or lose Clarkdw's answer at 8:58 pm. Anyhoo, good info. Woodie, you say "you think". Does this mean you're not totally sure?. Do both you guys agree with each others statements? I've got 4 bolts on crank pulley so is pre 94 I guess. Will have to look at timing belt later. Didn't know about japan direct engines or understand what that was about so what happened with that and is this likely to be a good thing or bad thing?. Do know oil pan replaced right before i got it if that tells anybody anything. Main thing! Am I screwed here as far as future troubleshooting? concerned that if I aquire a scanner and plug into OBD2 connector the read will be erroneous cause sensors missing or are OBD1 and don't match OBD2 computer. As I said, there are 4 or 5 connectors just hanging in different locations and engine light allways on. (seller disconnected bulb, the rat) how come it runs well? Looks like one can not subscribe to thread, get email about new posts, but will stay tuned in hopes others chip in in future. Again, many thanks.
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| clarkdw | Oct 20 2013, 03:42 PM Post #4 |
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Moved from the other post for simplicity. I agree with what Woodie has said. You still may have all the OBDII sensors other than the crank sensor. If all the intake and thermostat housing bits were transferred from the original engine in the car then it would only be missing the crank sensor. Do you have one temp sensor on the thermostat housing or two? Two is OBDI, one will be OBDII.
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| larcal | Oct 21 2013, 12:59 AM Post #5 |
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Just one temp sensor. Good. Not very used to working with sensors but what you say makes sense, (and is encouraging)--that if all the intake and thermostat housing pieces were transferred then all the 96 sensors could be moved also but then I'm unclear. Why would that not apply to the crank sensor also? Punched in a 93 geo in Autozone site and it says on 93 the crank sensor was in distributor. AZ may not be real reliable though as for temp sensor they only list one (instead of the two I now know it had) mounted next to throttle body of all strange places! Not sure what these Japan "takeouts" as Woodie calls them were but it seems odd they would not have some kind of year i.d on them. Seems like used engines would have usually been high mileage so its amazing there was enough demand for imports to be profitable. Very curious as to this and also as to how common they are in current Geos on road. Will take a lot of research maybe to track out all my sensors and see if I have them all besides CS, tho I guess someone with the eye could see it in 2 minutes. How negatively will not having a crank sensor affect trouble analysis or engine running/efficiency do you think? |
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| clarkdw | Oct 21 2013, 01:46 AM Post #6 |
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Crank sensor requires changing the oil pan and pump. It also requires a swap of the timing sprockets on the crank and cam, a different front timing belt cover and I am not sure what other changes. If it can be made to run without all those changes I can see where many would not go to the trouble. There was recently a question posed on the forum about different crankshafts having a 1.9" measurement on one type and 2.1" measurement on another type. My guess, and it is a guess, is that it is related to the snout length of OBDI crank vs OBDII crank. The timing sprocket on OBDII cranks is about that much wider than the earlier engines and may require a longer snout on the crank. |
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| larcal | Oct 23 2013, 04:36 PM Post #7 |
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Hi clarkdw Woe!, just did a compression test and found out all three are very high and equal, like 188 psi warm and 195 cold. (strange I know, should be reverse, but double tested it). Do you have any opinion as to how this is possible on a 93 or older used jap take-out? Like it must have had minimum of 50k on it, (and probably more) when I got it in 2007 and I've add another 30k with no problems of any kind which is why just now thinking about this stuff. (+ tranny just went) Anyway, sorry to here your info on crank sensor, though much appreciated. Normally not a problem cause runs good and getting 50 mpg. Maybe mpg would improve with CS? Read that if your CS is the type that is only used for misfire detection and not spark timing then will run fine but the Mil will stay lit all time which is my experience. But employment may force me to soon move to a city with emmission tests. So Geez, I may even need a new crank because of snout in addition to sprockets etc.? My second question is, how sure are you of all this? Have you had to do this or did read from reputable sources? Changing just the oil pump and pan is my current hopium as in what this seller of these engines says. Course he has reason to lie. http://www.bonanza.com/listings/Used-japanese-engine-JDM-GEO-METRO-90-00/9122481 Scroll part way down, you'll see his comment. Doesn't mention oil pan either Lastly, could I just ask you to dwell on my situation in general and comment about anything else you think of? Have allways lived rural with older carb vehicles mostly so just catching up. Will be getting code scanner soon so that along with ordered fsm should tell me whether I'm missing anything else. But in general, is the fact that the car runs well a safe indication that the rest of engine change was done correctly or could there be other missing hidden sensors? I take heart from the fact that I have only one temp sensor at the thermostat. A good indication maybe. Thank you again. I know I'm asking too much here but this thread has allready moved to second page and afraid I'll lose or have allready lost you learned attention. Maybe should have started new thread ? Best of luck. Love that Vert!!! http://www.bonanza.com/listings/Used-japanese-engine-JDM-GEO-METRO-90-00/9122481 Edited by larcal, Oct 23 2013, 04:42 PM.
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| clarkdw | Oct 29 2013, 07:33 AM Post #8 |
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Sorry, I missed the question. Too much work and not enough .Sounds like you have a good runner there. Since I have only pre-obdII cars I am not really familiar with the crank sensors' purpose. There seems to be all kinds of confusion here on the forum as some say they have run without them while others state that there car won't run with it too far from the reluctor ring on the crank sprocket as a result of using a pan gasket rather than just RTV silicone sealant on the pan. I think a good read of the 97 FSM in the manuals section of the forum would shed some light on it. The manuals sometimes make it hard to find info but it seems that there is an awful lot there. My FSM has been the most used book in my house over the past two+ years. If you need the CS working for emissions then you will need to at least change the sprockets to OBDII style because the trigger ring is on the crank sprocket and will require the wider cam sprocket to match. Not a big deal there. The reference to the longer crank snout came from this post What is the measurement of Crankshaft Snout/Neck as well as a memory of a similar reference some time ago in a forgotten location. All this being said, I have a 98 crank and three or four pre-obdII cranks in my stash that are by all appearances identical. So, take the post for what it was intended. A vague warning to do your research thoroughly before jumping in too deeply. Later this week when I have a couple of days off I will take some proper measurements to compare the early and late cranks. Geo Glenn might be able to give you a more firm answer as he has probably seen quite a few more OBDII cranks than I. There have also been at least one thread on here about a crank sprocket that ate into the oil pump and I wonder if that may also be related though at the time it was posted I didn't even consider that possibility. If you want me to do any measuring of the stuff I have ask away. I will help out if possible. |
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| larcal | Oct 31 2013, 12:31 AM Post #9 |
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Superb reply, Clark. For some odd reason I was assuming that whatever kind of trigger they put on that crank sprocket, (the "reluctor ring" I guess) was transferable and not integral but now clear why you need a new one and of course would need a wider cam sprocket to match. Intriqu.ing your find that there are such conflicting reports on lack or non performance of the crank sensor. It is a mystery what it is used for. Certainly not for spark timing or you'd have a problem. Maybe just misfire detection? Will report in if I learn more at some point. Mine runs fine, but maybe it's something about being a 96 and not 98-2000. Could be I'm losing in mpg though. If don't get better mpg the all this work and money just to get a CEL to turn off so inspector doesn't notice it. Grrrr Thanks for the offer to compare your 98 and older crank to see if is a .2" difference. Please do, that would be great. If they are exactly the same that should settle the issue and no crank replacement required! Will start a new thread on this cause thread label doesn't match topic so anyone who has dealt with this engine swap and could contribute or is just interested may not notice subject float by. You could leave your answer there if you like. Incoherent, falling asleep.
Edited by larcal, Oct 31 2013, 12:44 AM.
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| Old Man | Oct 31 2013, 12:48 AM Post #10 |
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Japanese used import engines: Cant say where or when but as I recall the Japanese laws require(d)? replacement of engines with 50K or 60k miles on them and not allowed to overhaul. That is/was the reason for our market saturation about 10 years ago of used Japanese engines. Getting higher priced now because supply has dwindled. memory kinda old and fuzzy, might be right/wrong??? Good deal for Geos since many times geo three bangers go for 200K+miles. |
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| vr4 | Oct 31 2013, 10:35 AM Post #11 |
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The inspector will notice it because if you have to DEQ you can't have codes stored and readiness monitors must be passed. |
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