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| 2 years of torment!; timing issues? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 30 2014, 12:58 PM (5,721 Views) | |
| nixmixin | May 30 2014, 12:58 PM Post #1 |
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I have had this same issue reoccur with various "solutions" that last briefly and then it comes back. I have done a lot of work on the car during the last 2+ years and have a feeling my issue is in the timing. The symptoms: Starts great in the morning. Runs amazing, responsive and strong...until the engine warms up. Once the engine warms up, it idles fine but bogs and wants to die when leaving a stop or medium load on the throttle. The idle does not surge (ruling out a vacuum leak, typically). At WOT, it runs "ok" but not as powerful/strong as when the engine is cold. No check engine light. Recent work done: Ran all new vacuum lines and tested for leaks. 3 days ago Completely rebuilt and cleaned out Throttle Body, EGR system and intake manifold because I was getting the code 51 and kept finding oil in the throttle body/air filter causing burning oil/tailpipe smoke. 2 days ago Cleaned every connection and electrical plug in the engine compartment and dash. Refreshed all ground connections and tested for continuity. Tested all temp sensors too. Yesterday Top end rebuild - new head gasket, head bolts, valve seals, new tappets/lifters and hand lapped the valves. February / 3 months ago. Why I think it is timing and why I am still stumped:After I rebuilt the head back in February, I remembered that I "had" to set the timing belt on the cam off by 1 tooth in order to be able to have any room to adjust the timing. When I follow the "normal" installation of the timing belt by lining up the marks on the cam sprocket to the mark on the valve cover AND set the crank to TDC, I have to have the distributor rotated back all the way to the back. So much so, that the vacuum advance thingy on the distributor hits the coolant line/thermostat housing!....then when it is in that position, I set the timing light up, plug the vacuum lines on the distributor and it reads at exactly 1 degree BTDC. This is where it is right now with the symptoms I listed above. Rotating forward brings the timing PAST TDC. In the past, I would turn the cam shaft clockwise by 1 tooth. Then I could get the timing light to be in the BEFORE TDC ranges for adjustment. But not THIS time! After I rebuilt the throttle body and did all the other stuff this week, I left the timing belt where is was (1 tooth off). .. Again, it ran great when it was cold but I could barely keep it driving once the engine warmed up. I tried adjusting the timing via the distributor and realized that I had to rotate it all the way FORWARD now to get any noticeable improvement. So, I thought, WOW, all my work has paid off and now the engine wants the timing belt in the "correct" place... so I pulled it apart and move the timing belt back to "stock" alignment markings and put it back together last night. Set up the timing light again... and again, it maxed out at 1 degree BTDC. It runs "better" today than yesterday but still wants to die as described in the symptoms. I am stumped because I cant rotate the distributor any further back than where it is now. I even thought about cutting the mounting tabs to allow more rotation but it wouldn't help due to the vacuum advance thingy already hitting the thermostat housing. I cannot stress enough how much of a Jeckle and Hyde car it is to drive. First thing in the morning is pure fun...for 10 minutes or so....then....it gives me the finger. side notes: When I first bought the car and rebuilt the engine, I got between 42 and 47 mpg. Now I average around 38 mpg. I only run 91 octane fuel. Compression is great, new plugs, air filter, fuel filter, newer ignition coil and wires, good fuel pressure. ..??? Since I did all this work on the car, It does run much smoother now and no longer has any more oil making it's way to the throttle body area. Please give me your ideas and directions. thanks |
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| David95237 | May 30 2014, 01:56 PM Post #2 |
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Awhile back we had a member that had timing problems as you describe, He finally reversed the connections to the distributor and all was better. Just a thought. Have you changed your O2 sensor recently? |
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| Old Man | May 30 2014, 02:57 PM Post #3 |
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With the loss in MPG I would suspect (and inspect) the fuel system. When its cold and idling does the rpm at idle drop when it warms up? Thinking maybe the electronics thinks the engine is cold ALL the time and keeps pumping extra gas ALL the time. |
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| nixmixin | May 30 2014, 02:57 PM Post #4 |
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whole new distributor, fuel injector, Throttle Switch (TPS) and o2 sensor in 2012 while chasing this problem. The plastic harness seems to only allow 1 way to connect the wires on the distributor? But that doesn't mean somebody in a factory didn't install that clip backwards, I guess? I can give it a try and see what happens fairly easily... Will give you an update soon...thanks |
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| nixmixin | May 30 2014, 05:23 PM Post #5 |
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Just confirming that you meant the 2 wire - white clip that comes off the distributor to the wiring harness? Tried the wire swap. Didn't even run like that. ![]() Was worth a shot though. ... |
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| ssssteve | May 30 2014, 07:23 PM Post #6 |
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Elite Member
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Have you checked the moon key on crankshaft? Might need to check the compression. |
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| nixmixin | May 30 2014, 07:28 PM Post #7 |
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Yeah. The Woodruff key is in great shape on the crank. I am finishing a other theory then I will do another compression test. |
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| nixmixin | May 30 2014, 07:51 PM Post #8 |
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Yes. It drops down in RPM after the engine warms up. The fuel pump, fuel filter and injector are all 2 years old or less. I am not ruling out any theories. I know the fuel filter is maybe 6 months old? I got rid of the OEM fuel filter and put an in line - clear fuel filter up in the engine compartment to make that process more simplistic to check and replace. It still looks brand new and is always full. It does have a rich smell from the exhaust lately but I thought it was due to the bad timing. Other than a fuel pressure test (which I can do too), what else can I test/check? |
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| nixmixin | May 30 2014, 08:09 PM Post #9 |
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maybe a fuel relay or something like that? I don't know how to test those though... and that doesn't explain my odd line-up of the timing belt, but at this point, I just want the dang thing to run well. |
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| Mrbreeze | May 30 2014, 08:18 PM Post #10 |
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Does your car have the connector that you have to jump to check the timing? I saw no mention of that and thought I would ask... |
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| Memphis metro | May 30 2014, 08:38 PM Post #11 |
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Go back and make sure you did not kink any fuel lines when you installed the fuel filter. |
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| McZukee | May 30 2014, 08:38 PM Post #12 |
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Protagonist
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I had experienced similar behaviour when I moved the stock fuel filter to under the hood because my filter bracket rusted off.![]() At hwy speeds, my power just wasn't the same. Zipping around town was Ok, but I just couldn't maintain speed on the highway, especially driving into a headwind. Once I found finally found a less rusted OEM bracket, I moved the filter back and my hwy speed power returned to normal. |
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| nixmixin | May 30 2014, 09:32 PM Post #13 |
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yes it does have the connector. And yes, I used the jumper and plug the vacuum lines to the distributor with attempting to adjust the timing. I will check again for any kinks in the fuel lines but I would think it be running lean, not fat if there were any kinks? I am very confused about the relevance of the location of the fuel filter. If the filter is good and fuel is flowing, how would that make a difference? Also, my particular case, it runs like crap and tries to die no matter what speed I am going after the motor warms up. It only matters if the motor is under load or not. No load, no problem. Load + cold motor = no problem. Warmed up motor + load = tries to die/spudders/stalls. |
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| Memphis metro | May 30 2014, 09:39 PM Post #14 |
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If the fuel outlet line from the tank to the fuel filter to the engine is kinked, it could cause insuffient fuel to run the engine correctly. If the fuel return line going to the fuel tank is restricted it would cause high fuel pressure and rich running condition. |
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| Hanuman | May 30 2014, 09:52 PM Post #15 |
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"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"
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so your distributor is all the way to one end?.......stop chasing your tail and correct the timing. line the cam sprocket to its mark. remove #1 spark plug and drip a pen down there, turn the crank shaft untill the pen stops going up, there will be a flat spot before the pen starts to go down. once in the flat spot.....install the belt. notice the relation ship between the crank pulley alignment mark and indicator....on my 97 geo tdc is about one tooth off from the factory alignment marks. turn the engine over by hand 3 rotations, check your alignment marks again? did they move? sometimes the slack in the belt forces you to be off one tooth to compensate for belt slack. once valve timing is correct, adjust ignition timing......then take a look at your sensors! both the iat and cts lean the engine out as it gets warm. are they with in spec? |
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