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Electric Motor on a Geo Metro
Topic Started: Jun 24 2014, 04:53 PM (2,120 Views)
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Hi Guys,

Just wondering if it would be possible to add an electric motor to a Geo XFI while keeping the 3 piston engine. Would there be a big gain in MPG with such a set up? Has anyone done it? 2001 Honda Insight and Geo Metro XFI give great MPGs. The insight has the electric motor but also a fuel engine, so it makes me wonder what kind of MPGs an XFI would give with an electric motor?
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Mythstae
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I don't recall reading any threads by anyone having done a hybrid Metro.
That said, if you are interested in Electric cars, check out these threads by our very own evmetro...

Tevie1; Electric '98(I'm guessing the year...)

Tevie2; Electric '93

Another EV Conversion; Cadillac ElDorado

Electro Metro; Electric '95
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perfesser
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Elite Member - Former Metro owner

Packaging is going to be your biggest challenge. The engine room wasn't designed for adding an electric motor, and you'll need a controller, too. A motor big enough to do you any good will probably also need a cooling package. Not impossible but you're going to have to plan this thoroughly.


Our students installed a full electric drive train in the front of a diesel Smart car to make it a diesel-electric hybrid a few years ago. If this is your itch you have to scratch it! Go for it!!
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Cobb
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:popcorn What about Coyote? Didnt he add an electric motor to one of the drive axles and got 100+ mpg with 3 deep cycle batteries?
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evmetro


According to my calculations, you would not have enough room for a good sized battery pack that would give you any kind of decent range, so you would have to settle for a very small pack. Since the small pack will not get you very far, you will spend most of your time hauling around a dead electric drive system that will decrease the mpg of the burdened gasoline drive system. If you were to try to charge the EV battery with the gasoline motor, the mpg would be worse than an unencumbered gasoline motor would be. To the best of my knowledge, the only solution is to remove the gasoline motor altogether and use a large battery pack.
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evmetro


If you want to brainstorm on a way to make it work, it would be very important to use google wiki and look up perpetual motion and thermal dynamics. If you get yourself to fully understand these two concepts, you will have what it takes to know what is possible and what is not. These two subjects can look a bit overwhelming as you read the wiki articles, but if you are determined enough, you can load the info into your head. My formal education was over after 3 years of high school, so if I can upload the knowledge into my head, I would think that anybody could...
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Coyote X


I had 6 batteries for 72V on my setup. It wasn't fast but it mostly did the job I wanted it to I really just needed more amps and a more reliable drive system. But running around close to home ~20 miles away it was nothing to keep it over 100mpg. So adding the cost of it together it would take me prob 500,000 miles to break even on cost going from 60 to 100mpg :)

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Edited by Coyote X, Jun 24 2014, 08:44 PM.
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Coyote X


Just to add to it my new metro build is also going to be a hybrid but it is going to be at least 108V and a much larger motor. Probably an AC75 connected directly to the driven shaft in the transmission and as large a pack of lithium batteries that can fit in the much larger kit car body. The cost is going to be unreal compared to how much gas it is going to save but it should be a wild ride :)
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evmetro


One gallon of gasoline = 33410 watt hours of electricity.
A realistic mpg for a metro is 40 mpg.
33410 watt hours divided by 40 mpg = 835 watt hours per mile
When I drive the same Metro listed above as a fully electric conversion, same weight, I see 160 watt hours per mile. If I drive like an asshole, I can use as much as 220 watt hours per mile. 835 minus 160 = 675 watt hours out your tail pipe and radiator. Wherever you feel heat in your metro, you are feeling a huge fuel and economy leak.
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perfesser
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Elite Member - Former Metro owner

evmetro
Jun 24 2014, 07:56 PM
... My formal education was over after 3 years of high school, so if I can upload the knowledge into my head, I would think that anybody could...
I get mostly blank looks from my students when I tell them never to let school get in the way of their education. :hmm :hmm :hmm
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evmetro


Where I was wanting to go with my last post, is that trying to incorporate an extra drive system will add weight to your car, and the amount of fuel used to haul the extra weight around adds up really fast on one of those fuel hog 3 cylinder motors. With the laws of physics that we know of, it is not possible to increase your mpg by adding an EV drive system that is charged via the gasoline motor. You can gain something by recharging your EV drive system from an external source, (the plug in your garage) but your improved economy is only good for the range of the EV battery. No matter what combination of gasoline and electric you run, the car will weigh more than the 40 mpg Metro, so it will consume more watt hours per mile, and you will never see anything close to 160 watt hours per mile, even if the gasoline motor is shut down.
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evmetro


perfesser
Jun 24 2014, 09:36 PM
evmetro
Jun 24 2014, 07:56 PM
... My formal education was over after 3 years of high school, so if I can upload the knowledge into my head, I would think that anybody could...
I get mostly blank looks from my students when I tell them never to let school get in the way of their education. :hmm :hmm :hmm
I want a data port like the folks have on the backs of their heads in the movie "The Matrix". I bet those become available after we are gone. It sounds a lot easier than absorbing my education through the wiki and internet. I suppose my style of education would be more appealing here in the metro community where we appreciate things that are free...
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Coyote X


Putting electric drive like I did on my first attempt is fun to drive for a while but it is a lot of work keeping up with everything. I had a megasquirt on the engine so it didn't run rich when cold it always ran at 16:1 afr. It also had no idle and would cut the fuel completely at no throttle. The way I would drive it would be pull out of my driveway on electric, coast down my alley, pull out onto the road and bump start the motor in second and get up to 40mph if there was traffic and I needed to get up to speed fast then let the motor die and run on electric till I got to the first mountain. If there was no traffic I would let the electric get me up to speed and that would take about 45 seconds to 40mph. Then bump start and gas up the hill. On top back on electric till the next hill. I would use regen instead of brakes everywhere possible and the car had a geared max speed of 60mph. It was a lot of work keeping track of battery power and using two throttles and constantly having to bump start the motor but if I was really lucky and traffic and everything was perfect I could hit around 400mpg on a 30 mile round trip to work. I think I managed that twice out of the 25 or so times I tried it before I gave up on that car and started building the kit car out of it. I actually spent more on chains and master links than I did on gas or electric due to the way the drive was attached to the axle.
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Cobb
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I had been meaning to visit Coyote X and see his car to get some ideas. I have a phev kit for my hybrid, but the converter acts up and its out of warranty, company out of business. I got a working 4kilowatt lifepo4 battery. I wanted to do something similar to what Coyote X did either driving the engine by the accessory drive since its always spinning even in EV mode. :popcorn
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Coyote X
Jun 24 2014, 10:05 PM
if I was really lucky and traffic and everything was perfect I could hit around 400mpg on a 30 mile round trip to work. I think I managed that twice out of the 25 or so times I tried it before I gave up on that car and started building the kit car out of it. I actually spent more on chains and master links than I did on gas or electric due to the way the drive was attached to the axle.
Wow, that is unreal! I never would have thought you could get 400mpg on a geo metro xfi that had an electric motor. Too bad it was just so much work to drive it. Also the MPG was not consistent. If it was boy would that be quite a sight. Do you think you could justify the extra work if the 400mpg was constant when you drove it?

Insane thank you guys for all the responses!
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