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| The WOLF CUB (1993 Suzuki Swift/Metro) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 25 2014, 03:15 PM (14,631 Views) | |
| Greywolf | Apr 1 2015, 01:28 AM Post #91 |
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Mostly Harmless
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You are confusing the regulator pressure test with the total output pressure test for the pump itself. Did you read the thread? The throttle body is off the manifold and being rebuilt. What I was curious about was if the pump was delivering its rated pressure of 40PSI. 100PSI is two and a half times the reading I was hoping for. This makes me wonder if I have too much pump installed, but I guess too much is better than not enough. UPDATE: Parts on order/inbound from Rock Auto REMAN Injector New Injector O-rings New Pressure Regulator Air Filter TOTAL: $128.01 Edited by Greywolf, Apr 1 2015, 04:46 AM.
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| Metromightymouse | Apr 1 2015, 05:37 AM Post #92 |
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Powdercoat Wizard
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Can you provide a link to the total output pressure test procedure in the FSM? |
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| Greywolf | Apr 1 2015, 12:49 PM Post #93 |
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Mostly Harmless
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I really don't think I need to. LOOKIT! You really need to think outside of the BOX... If I HAD THAT INFO, I would not need to ask about it... A fuel pump output spec is a thing that a manufacturer should provide. -and for kripes sakes lets not let this devolve into a pissing contest, okay? I DON'T GO BY THE NORMAL CHECKS, I look deeper. If a component of any kind is suspect, I want to know how to PROVE once and for all that it is either: A) GOOD B) BAD That is all I care about... I also am interested in identifying a component that is TOO MUCH for the system I am abandoning the other thread and post in it, because unless and until there is better information it is worthless. I am seeing "OPINIONS" rather than solid information - which leads me to think no one has questioned the pumps parameters or what it should correctly read. There appears to be a lack of empirical info. 1) What is the expected pressure output of a 1993 in tank 1.3L SOHC TBI pump? 2) What is the spec volume of such a pump? We have no data
--line deleted because it was impolite-- I'm seeing an OEM (supposedly) pump that is cranking out far more than the rated pressure ~If you want an apology, push the "GIVEN" button, and lets continue to explore this rationally Where that puts us exactly is this: If THAT PRESSURE is exceeded combined with the VOLUME it delivers it is greater than the regulator can handle Hmm... I'll grant you ten seconds and a high school education to figure out what that does If however the VOLUME (flow) is limited, it means the regulator has it in control. ~That's a big "IF" It points to a constant outflow back to the tank by the regulator - and also a larger than normal "UNSEATING" of the regulator diaphragm if the volume is too great. IE: The regulator is being overworked, and will fail sooner. I think the system is designed to be constantly releasing pressure back to the tank. But in what amounts? Will it last longer with a lower pressure pump driving it? This is why I never care much about "GOING BY THE BOOK" BOOKS do not explain the fundamental "WHY" They just tell a trusting soul: "DO THIS, OR DO THAT" And they are usually incomplete *A more intelligent method would include a fuel pressure sensor that would turn off the pump when the correct pressure was achieved, then turn it back on as needed. As it is, it seems the pump runs full time, and bleed back corrects the pressure Edited by Greywolf, Apr 5 2015, 08:37 PM.
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| ZXTjato | Apr 1 2015, 03:37 PM Post #94 |
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bass heads
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| Greywolf | Apr 1 2015, 04:53 PM Post #95 |
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Mostly Harmless
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I think I just outlined the next modification I want to do once I get it running... An adjustable pressure sensor that controls a relay to cut the pump on and off *Mano -popcorn is bad for you, the shells get stuck between the teeth and make your gums hurt... Edited by Greywolf, Apr 1 2015, 04:58 PM.
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| David95237 | Apr 1 2015, 05:49 PM Post #96 |
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Do you realize how often that pump will have to stop and start? Good luck keeping a relay intact.You will have to put an accululator on it. And you still wont have a constant pressure.
Edited by David95237, Apr 1 2015, 05:49 PM.
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| Metromightymouse | Apr 1 2015, 06:53 PM Post #97 |
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Powdercoat Wizard
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My goodness. Well, I did explain in the other thread, (which I haven't read yet) why the factory doesn't specify a fuel pressure as you are testing it. There is no spec provided because it isn't a normal test. The important number is what the pressure in the system is when it is being controlled by the fuel pressure regulator. The only time that kind of pressure you are measuring would be achieved is when the fuel system had a blockage. Perhaps it's a case of still thinking old school where there was a mechanical fuel pump that pushed pressure against a valve that was opened when the fuel level in the bowl dropped to a certain point. If the pump put out too much pressure it would overpower the valve and cause fuel to be in places you didn't want it. That whole methodology has pretty much been abandoned with fuel injection. I did find one site that listed doing a dead head test and it said the pressure should be two times the pressure at idle or it may not be able to deliver enough fuel at higher engine speeds. Link to site here; http://www.aa1car.com/library/fuel_pump_diagnose.htm Notice it doesn't say anything about too much pressure. As for why the fuel pump runs all the time, it is about wear. The largest amount of wear on an engine happens at start up when metal is in contact with metal. When the oil pressure comes up the metal is no longer in contact with metal, it is riding on the oil. The same is true of the fuel pump. There is more wear at start up than when it is running. So turning it on and off over and over will increase wear and shorten the parts lifespan. This is also true of simple electrical devices as well. Every time a copper winding in an electric motor is electrified it heats and expands. The windings are held in place with a resin and the repeated expanding and contracting eventually breaks the resin allowing the winding to vibrate against the other windings until it breaks and the motor dies. I have no desire to start or even have a pissing match with you. I would like to provide sound advice that you are free to take or reject as you see fit. I will not get all butt hurt because you don't like the information I present and decide to go your own way. You seem to ask questions and when someone provides information based on their experience or knowledge, if it doesn't match what you want to hear, you get angry. This is a forum environment and even if you just say you are going to do something, you will likely still get posts that suggest why it may not be a good idea. I don't know if there is a solution that will provide you with only "that sounds awesome" responses beyond ignoring every member that disagrees with you (if you need to know how just shoot me a PM and I will give you the procedure). I'm not interested in, or trying to, make you angry, I just want to provide the information that would prevent you from wasting hours chasing rainbows. I get that you enjoy the chase at times, but what kind of forum friend would I be if I didn't tell you when I thought the chase might get you lost in the forest? Do what you like, I have no further information to provide concerning this issue and in fact, if you ask nicely, I will attempt to refrain from answering any other questions you have or pointing out when something doesn't seem to be right. Good luck in your chase and I hope you catch what you are seeking. |
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| iveyjh | Apr 1 2015, 11:01 PM Post #98 |
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Good Post
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| aaronvincent | Apr 2 2015, 12:49 AM Post #99 |
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Mr Mojo Risin'
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I said in the same thing in fewer words to a rather loose woman I met once
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| Greywolf | Apr 3 2015, 04:25 PM Post #100 |
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Mostly Harmless
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I'm not angry at you or anybody - I'm just frustrated that so simple a setup should be so fraught with pitfalls when there are no more parts available for some things. I'm on hold now while some longer bolts are being sent out. - I wish I had known about the heat method of removing those loctited screws before I dove in with old school know-how and had to over drill and tap the holes. Turns out they didn't fit when the regulator cover was in place. At this point it looks like the first place this car is going after it runs is to the nearest pull-a-part to find a better throttle body (if any are left) God knows I have all the parts to rebuild one now... I feel like I should issue a blanket apology to everybody now before I get run out of town on a rail. Believe it or not - after all this hassle with the T/B I just got done sending for a tube each of both BLUE and PURPLE loctite, since safety wire drilled screws don't seem to be available in that size. PURPLE Loctite I have never even heard of before, BLUE is what was used on the screws by the factory. Purple is what is recommended for carbs and T/B's HEAT is the key to loosening the stuff. ~All of this was unknown to me before I dug into this nightmare. Here's a link to some in-depth info on grades of loctite: http://us.henkel-adhesives-blog.com/post/All-About-Threadlockers/The-Difference-Between-Red-Blue-Green-and-Purple-Threadlockers/ Edited by Greywolf, Apr 3 2015, 05:55 PM.
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| Metromightymouse | Apr 3 2015, 07:30 PM Post #101 |
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Powdercoat Wizard
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No one is going to run you out or off of the forum. Your posts are largely entertaining, please just keep in mind that most of the time we are just trying to help. Either help you to fix your problem or to keep you from wasting a bunch of time chasing your tail when the thing you are thinking has been pretty well explored and isn't likely to work. We aren't going to think less of you if you decide to explore it for yourself regardless, and most of us won't come back and put "I told you sos" all over the forum when it turns out the way we said it would. Now, before you try to set up a fuel pump cut off system, please ask us if it will work and what challenges you face to make it work. Metro on!! MMM |
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| Stubby79 | Apr 4 2015, 03:27 AM Post #102 |
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This thread needs some
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| Greywolf | Apr 5 2015, 12:37 PM Post #103 |
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Mostly Harmless
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I think based on what has been suggested that I will skip the modified fuel pump control in favor of not having to replace a burned out pump anytime soon. I always get nervous if I have to pull a fuel tank... You wanna know how far out there my thinking can get - I have a fuel pressure regulator and another pump (external to tank type) complete with fittings sitting in a box on my coffee table right now. HOWEVER, I didn't know at the time I ordered the setup that they were intended for a V8. The regulator is a huge thing, that could manage fuel for a big block with twin Dominator carbs on it... It was the only one in the range the manuals I have suggested. Aren't Summit Racing catalogs fun? A hundred bucks worth of stuff that I'll use for something else. ~I guess... Starting to think about brake cooling air to the front calipers, the air dam I built blocks it pretty much so what I'm thinking is to drill a pattern of small holes in the front - just outside of the main air intake. If I do it right, they won't show from a distance, and will contribute low speed, low pressure air to those areas. Edited by Greywolf, Apr 5 2015, 08:40 PM.
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| myredvert | Apr 5 2015, 10:22 PM Post #104 |
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myredvert
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There is a proper diagnostic check for the fuel system in the FSM, designed to gather empirical data for evaluating the sytem, as specified by the people who designed it. Randomly checking bit and pieces and individual components isn't it.I guess I won't bother repeating MMM's reasonable and relevant question about these interesting sounding, but unidentified "tests," since any testing other than the proper system tests is pretty irrelevant to ensuring the system as a whole is operating properly. How DARE he ask that question just because it sounded like you pulled those "test names' out of your butt... the good news is, it's never too late to check the system properly when you put it back together. It's just that proper testing before disassembly whenever possible is usually a more efficient way to go. Not only does proper testing yield real and relevant DATA, also, any components not operating properly can be identified and repaired replaced first and you may save a second or third round of disassembly. This explains a lot, and is by far the reason why you create more problems than you "solve." No matter how "deep" you look into a pile of poop or how high you pile it, it's still nothing but poop.
Your lack of empirical information and data is a direct result of your refusal/failure to do a proper system test.most people involved in scientific pursuits who become successful in "thinking outside the box" usually have one thing in common - they become expert in understanding what's inside the box first. They normally don't skip learning the relevant science part before inventing new science. You can't reinvent science, systems design, or real diagnostics by ignoring the ones that exist. You also may want to consider using your extensive collection of un-named but obviously non-FSM "manuals" that you have been "researching" for fire starter and get a real FSM. |
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| Greywolf | Apr 6 2015, 01:00 PM Post #105 |
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Mostly Harmless
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If your lead tech on an aircraft had just replaced several major components in a fuel system, would you want them verified before going further? We now know 90% of the fuel system in this inventory article is operating 5.0, that is an accomplished fact. This is important before refurbishing the final component, we want to know that everything else is functioning, and there was doubt due to the lack of any signs of fuel in the regulator cavity. RE:
"Sticks and stones may break my bones", but that "BOX" contains a fuel pump, chassis filter, and lines, any one of which could individually have caused "POOP" to happen, which the system test I did when I troubleshot the battery and starter issues PARTIALLY revealed. It was not necessary to put a gauge on it At That Time (ATT), because there was obvious pressure in the fuel delivery line. The question then was how much? Was there enough that it should have had no problem transiting the injector to the regulator? Was it sufficient that under normal conditions the regulator should have allowed fuel to flow through it? (which very definitely did not happen. Dis-assembly revealed that fuel never arrived at the regulator) *Visual inspection found it BONE DRY It became an immediate requirement to verify that what had been accomplished thus far was sufficient to sustain further mission capability. In this situation it became necessary to verify the system integrity from the fuel delivery line on BACK to the tank. This has been duly verified, fuel delivery is 100% except as regards Ref. 2, Fuel Pump Relief Valve Operation - which was expected to hold output to within anticipated parameters. The conclusion here is that the rest of the issues should clear once the T/B unit is back online, provided the electronics that operate the injector itself are operational. Since this maintenance activity currently has no capability to monitor and evaluate EEC outputs to the injector itself but the ignition circuits appear to be functional ATT, we are persuing a logical and straightforward system evaluation procedure (Believe it or Not) which "GUESSTISSUMES" that the EEC module is at least partially mission capable. ~ Local On Scene Mission Commander advises V/R Greywolf, LOSMC REFERENCE: 1) CHILTON Chevrolet Sprint/Geo Metro 1985-1993 Repair manual, part# 8424 2) CHILTON Chevrolet Sprint & Metro, Geo Metro/Suzuki Swift 1985-2000 Repair manual part# 28700 ISBN: 1 56392 427 7 Library of Congress control# 2001090882 Copyright 2001 Author Credit: Joseph D'Orazio, A.S.E. 3) HAYNES Chevrolet Sprint & Geo Metro 1985-1994 part# 24075 (1727) CQ CQ CQ: Stand by for documentation -vis- REF#2 Page 5-15, paragraph "TESTING" photo to follow.... ![]() *This item was checked at fuel line termination in the engine bay, far beyond the filter. Reading equals 100PSI Gauge PRESENT STATUS: AWP (Awaiting Parts), NON MISSION CAPABLE LOSMC "Lost Wolf" MAINTFAC sendzzz -MESSAGE TERMINATES- tango alpha romeo foxtrot union/whiskey tango foxtrot Edited by Greywolf, Apr 6 2015, 02:46 PM.
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Good Post


7:23 PM Jul 10