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Geo Stalling Problem
Topic Started: Jul 29 2014, 01:24 PM (1,718 Views)
GeoFan55
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I recently bought a 94 Geo Metro 1.0L. It had oil in the coolant so I replaced the headgasket and water pump while I was at it. I also replaced the spark plugs, battery, all fluids, air & fuel filters. I could barely get it to start by pouring a little gas into the intake. It has a surging idle and almost sounds like its cammed (its clearly not). I replaced the throttle position sensor yesterday. Started it up and it idled down like its suppose to. Then once it got warm it would choke out and die. I had to rewire the fan to a switch because the fan would never turn on by itself, and when I flip it on the idle goes down even more before it dies. Its fine when its cold but as soon as it gets to operating temperature it dies. I am getting 31 P.S.I. when I turn the key back and forth 3 times to let the fuel pump cycle. At higher RPMs it runs like a dream, it just idles rough and has a hard time starting (especially when its been ran for awhile). The starting issue seemed to get better with the new TPS sensor but still is not how it should be. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Edited by GeoFan55, Jul 29 2014, 01:51 PM.
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

Welcome to your new forum, GeoFan55! :coffee

Might check your fuel injector. It should be spraying a nice cone when it fires and not dripping fuel when it is turned off. Fuel injector test.

Are you getting a CEL? Check it anyway. CEL Guide.

For surging you may want to check your O2 sensor. Test O2 sensor.

Engine Idle Surge Test by mwebb.

Hope that helps.

:bump
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Potter
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Col. Potter

i know this is hard to hear... DRIVE IT. the ecm when it gets unhooked needs some time to "relearn" what the motor is doing. every time i unhook the battery the car acts stupid for a few 30 miles then straightens up. plus it will give you time to diagnose what it is thats going on. when it acts up, what it dose then you can figure out why
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GeoFan55
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Thanks for your input guys! A CEL came on after driving it for about an hour and half or so. It ended up being the O2 sensor but now it does not come on anymore. I drove it about 40 or 50 miles last night and the CEL never came on. I would like to take the O2 sensor off but it was so rusted on that it is almost rounded off on the bolt so i don't think i will be able to remove it. IS there anyway you can soak a fuel injector in something to get the crud out of it?
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Mrbreeze


Soak the 02 sensor with some type of penetrating oil, if it's as jacked as you say, it probably needs replaced anyway, vise grips work pretty well to remove em..
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Mrbreeze


Have you checked the compression?
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Woodie
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Mrbreeze
Jul 29 2014, 08:02 PM
Have you checked the compression?
:gp

With the prevalence of burned valves and worn rings in Metro engines, I would never take the head off without doing a valve, hone and ring. The labor involved with taking the head off and the cost of a head gasket and bolts are fairly close to half a refresh.

Any G10 over 100K miles is past the tipping point for doing the entire job.


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GeoFan55
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well after tonight I will know for sure what the problem is. But my theory is that my exhaust valve is not sealing properly to the head. I will have the compression tester tonight to tell for sure. I removed the spark plug wire from the third cylinder and the car did not sound any different running. When I completely removed the spark plug and fired it, it started like cake but ran poorly obviously. We just checked the injector and its spraying in a perfect cone, blue spark from plugs, just not enough compression. This is why I believe my CEL for the O2 sensor would pop on after awhile of driving, because the sensor detected the engine running too rich. Any other advice would be nice! Thanks for your help guys!
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GeoFan55
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Well my valves are toast! They are all carboned up, and my exhaust valve on my third cylinder is burnt white. I noticed my pistons can wiggle back and forth slightly. I mean its less than .04 of an inch. Isn't this normal since aluminum pistons expand when they reach operating temperature?
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GeoFan55
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Sorry guys meant .004 of an inch! .04 would be insane!
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GeoFan55
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Here is the latest update on my Geo. I replaced the exhaust and intake valves as well as a new head gasket and head bolts. I have yet to get the Geo running after that. I had a mechanic help me install the valves. Its getting good compression but will still not fire, even after pulling it. I have almost got it stated once then last night I could not. I will check the timing again but it should be good. Any suggestions why it will not fire or any theories would be appreciated.
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myredvert
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myredvert

Verify the plug wires are routed correctly.

And, what were the actual compression numbers when you checked it previously? Or now with the head reinstalled with the new valves? At least that's one thing you can check even if you can't get it running yet.
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GeoFan55
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I have double checked the plugs with diagrams off of Alldata and in accordance with the rotation of the distributor. The compression was 110 in cylinder 1, 65 in cylinder 2, and 15 in cylinder 3. Now it is between 100-110 in all three cylinders. Alldata tells that to get a proper compression test you must get the vehicle up to operating temperature and put a compression tester on while having the throttle wide open while cranking. Tonight I'm going to adjust my TPS sensor according to Alldata and test my ignition coil according to Alldata procedures.
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myredvert
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myredvert

Quote:
 
The compression was 110 in cylinder 1, 65 in cylinder 2, and 15 in cylinder 3. Now it is between 100-110 in all three cylinders.
Some of the more experienced Metro guys may be able to shed some light on whether or not that low of compression is related to your starting problem, but unless you are located on one of the highest peaks in the Rockies, the compression values are almost half of "normal" compression, and considerably below the Factory Service Manual minimum (156.4).

If you plan on keeping the car for a while, you may want to carefully re-read Woodie's post #7 from above, and also consider postponing the chase after ancillary component issues (TPS, coil, etc.) until you resolve the compression problem. Even if you do get it running, it is not probably not going to run very well (or for very long) with whatever ring, piston, and/or cylinder issues the engine still has.

FWIW, there is an actual 1994 Factory Service Manual in the forum library (free!)

link>> Geo Metro Forum→The Garage→Factory Repair Manuals/Wiring Diagrams→1994 Library
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Bad Bent
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Facetious Educated Donkey

GeoFan55
Aug 14 2014, 05:28 PM
I have double checked the plugs with diagrams off of Alldata and in accordance with the rotation of the distributor.
Not sure what the Alldata plug wire diagram looks like but here's a corrected one.

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp123/BadBent/Repair%20Pics/firingorder2-1.jpg

How I check timing... if your #1 piston is at TDC of the compression stroke, the distributor rotor is at about 12 o'clock in it's rotation and your timing mark should be visible at about 12 o'clock on the crank pulley. Conversely, if you set the crank pulley at anywhere in the timing scale, the distributor rotor should be where the #1 post is if you are at the top of the compression stroke.

You hooked up the ground wire on the back of the Throttle Body, a charged battery, fuel, spark at plugs. Might get started with starting fluid spray? The other issue will be the compression. :-/
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