Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Posted ImageWelcome to the all new Geo Metro Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are features you can't use and images you can't see. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Join our community!




Username:   Password:
Add Reply
dirty valve and ring job -- with pics
Topic Started: Jan 21 2015, 10:45 PM (5,345 Views)
brush
Member
[ *  *  * ]
(for context, see: http://geometroforum.com/topic/5725521/4/#new )

ok everyone! the parts arrived today -- at least, the first batch -- and i got right into it. took things slow and steady, and didn't break or strip anything, so feel pretty good. status: the head is off!

i have pics of the whole process, but i figure you all have seen enough head jobs... so i'll only do pics of the potentially unusual bits.

first off, many of the bolt head sizes are different from what JM's how-to says -- maybe the '96 engine is different, or maybe they're replacement bolts? the nuts on the crank pulley were 10mm, not 8 -- and so close to the center nut that it was very hard to get the socket on! anyway...

immediately noticed that two intake stud/nuts and one exhaust bolt were missing! all of them closest to #1 cylinder. see pics:

exhaust (leftmost hole, to left of center pic):
Posted Image

intake (two rightmost holes, in center of pic):
Posted Image

also, when removing the timing belt (which seems in fine shape) i noticed that the cam and crank seemed slightly (1/4 inch at most?) out of alignment -- see pic (maybe you can see it in here? the crank is aligned exactly, so it's the diff in the cam notches):
Posted Image

luckily, the exhaust nuts were pretty easy to come off -- i've snapped a stud before, and it was good to avoid that! the valve cover was easy once i pried the little rubber seals off the studs -- are those reusable, or do i need new ones?

it was a challenge to get the headbolts off -- 140 ft/lbs on some of them! snapped one of my extenders on my 3/8" driver, but got them off with another more robust one.

i took the intake off last -- the bolt underneath was challenging to get to, so i lifted and pivoted the combo and had a friend hold it while i took it off from underneath. this way all the hoses/wires are still attached.

as you can see, i left the distributor on, since perfessor and some others indicate you don't necessarily need it to come off. for doing a valve job, should the dist come off (and, i suppose, get a new gasket/o-ring)?

ok, here's what i found! first the cylinders:

Posted Image

#1:
Posted Image

#2:
Posted Image

#3:
Posted Image

there's coolant in the sleeve (and some spilled into the cylinders and everywhere when i pulled the head), even though i drained the radiator with the draincock. is there another drain to open?

and then the valves:
Posted Image

obviously the #3 valves (rightmost) are the dirtiest, as expected. however, none of them look AWFUL (the carbon isn't more than a few mm thick, except for one or two small patches) and there's no actual hole in the exhaust valve. probably why the compression is just low, and not gone! :)

one last picture, the hole that i take to be the EGR port. it seems pretty clean and obstruction-free. i'll still clean it a bit, but this does make me wonder more about other causes of the burnt valve? seems even more to suggest oil in cylinder, right?
Posted Image

next steps: 1) take off the cam and pull/inspect/clean the lifters. right? and 2) put kerosene in the cylinders and check how much the level drops.

(btw -- can i use camp fuel / white gas rather than kerosene, which i don't have lying around? i figure they have similar properties...)

finally -- i saw some things about doing the cam seal if the head's open? is that kind of standard? what about other seals?

thanks everyone! i'll be scrubbing away on those carbon deposits while you share your wisdom...
Edited by brush, Jan 21 2015, 10:49 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Car Nut
Member Avatar


Keep in mind the danger of gas. Have a fire extinguisher close by if you must use gas. I wouldn't if it was me. Seen too many garages burnt down from sparks & gas fumes.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brush
Member
[ *  *  * ]
thanks, car nut. "white gas" =naphtha is, i think, less dangerous than gasoline-- but still, i went ahead and used "lamp oil", which is more or less identical to kerosene i think. we'll see how much it's gone down tomorrow am.

**and** i have a theory! in the picture of the three cylinders up above you can see that the "oil check valve" or oil "restrictor" or whatever next to #1 cylinder is MISSING. i did not remove it, and have not mucked with the block since removing the head. it seems most probable that the PO overhauled the engine, not particularly well (ie. missing bolts), and lost the check valve. this means, i think, that it makes it easier for oil to get into the combustion chamber? not exactly sure, but i think i read that. if so, perhaps helps explain things? fwiw, the carbon on the pistons is very easy to come off -- my fingernail does the trick.

does anyone have one of these lying around? otherwise i think i'm pick'n'pull bound tomorrow!!

then we'll see about these rings...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hanuman
"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"

looks like its still in the hole, thought i saw a "slot"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Woodie
Member Avatar


The clean areas around the outside edges of your pistons tell me your rings aren't sealing very well.

Timing marks don't align exactly, yours look right to me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
perfesser
Member Avatar
Elite Member - Former Metro owner

Hanuman
Jan 22 2015, 04:28 AM
looks like its still in the hole, thought i saw a "slot"
Oh, yeah, it's there. That hole is way deeper than shown in your pic. Easiest way to get it out is with a brass magnet, but none of the stores I've checked recently had any in stock! :lol

Excellent pics, by the way! :thumb
Edited by perfesser, Jan 22 2015, 09:49 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brush
Member
[ *  *  * ]
a) the leakdown test worked! as seen below, the #1 and #3 cylinders are almost empty, and the #2 is pretty much completely full at the same level as last night. and, as woody noted, the #1 and 3 pistons have clean rings around the edges!

Posted Image

b) i can't find this check valve for the life of me. i'm not sure what you're seeing in the pics, but i think it's a trick of the light. there's nothing for at least 2 inches down in the block, and at least an inch in the head (but the check valve wouldn't be in the head, right?). see pics below, hopefully you can see what i mean. are we sure that a '96 engine would have this check valve?

Posted Image
Posted Image

if i can't find this valve, i assume i have to get one somewhere -- and you can't buy 'em, right? so should i start pulling apart the junkyards? figuring this out is urgent cause it's a bit of a journey to the nearest JY.

i'll be getting to work on the cam/lifters next.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
snowfish
Member Avatar
Basic GearHead

This project is a prime candidate for one of these JDM's. ^o)

Posted Image

http://www.torontojdm.com/cart.php?target=product&product_id=5465&category_id=172

92,000 kms is less than 60,000 miles. :thumb

Retain your existing distributor, and intake, and you're good to go for another 70,000 miles. Realistically you'll have about $650.00+, when it's all said and done, into this swap. :hmm That should cover freight, miscellaneous gaskets & O-rings, coolant, oil, belts, plugs, cap, rotor, and wires. :deal

You can very easily exceed that amount, by a bunch, with machine work and parts, building your own. ^o) And still end up being that guy, who's engine won't start, after a build. :banghead Just a thought. :cheers
Edited by snowfish, Jan 22 2015, 03:15 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brush
Member
[ *  *  * ]
hi snowfish,

those do look like a pretty good deal for $300, and ... well, i've pretty much got all the parts already and am halfway through this engine, so no point stopping now. :)

fwiw, i did find a check valve online and apparently available! see http://www.gmpartsgiant.com/parts/gm-valve-che-96065176.html . it's on its way, allegedly.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
snowfish
Member Avatar
Basic GearHead

Good enough. :thumb Silly question, but how do you feel about Velcro instead of shoe laces? :hmm
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
myredvert
Member Avatar
myredvert

Quote:
 
fwiw, i did find a check valve online and apparently available! see http://www.gmpartsgiant.com/parts/gm-valve-che-96065176.html . it's on its way, allegedly.
When the discussion came up a few weeks ago, I called them directly to ask about them. I asked if they list them online does that mean they are available, and he said if you order one, they will then go through the list of all their sources and try to find one, and if they don't, they will notify you they are not available.

The person I talked to did check every one of their parts sources at that time and said he could not find one. I hope he was wrong and whoever process your order is able to find one, but my guess is that you should get some notification from GMPartsGiant.com in the next few days telling you they aren't available. :(
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1DCGUY
Member Avatar
Don't be a "Richard"

snowfish
Jan 22 2015, 03:19 PM
Good enough. :thumb Silly question, but how do you feel about Velcro instead of shoe laces? :hmm
OMG, I just spit soda out of my mouth!!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Justahoby
Unqualified informant

snowfish
Jan 22 2015, 03:19 PM
Good enough. :thumb Silly question, but how do you feel about Velcro instead of shoe laces? :hmm
A jdm motor is easier like flip flops.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brush
Member
[ *  *  * ]
myredvert: :( doubtless you're right. so ... again, anyone got one (of the oil check valves from the block) on hand? otherwise, i think i've got a field trip. just need to make my master list of all the things i need from the JY for various vehicles... haha.

snowfish: um, laces. they're more of a challenge. ;)

pics of the valves on the way. trying to figure how to get the valve seals off. anyone have specs for valve guides handy?
Edited by brush, Jan 22 2015, 04:16 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hanuman
"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"

brush
Jan 22 2015, 12:50 PM
a) the leakdown test worked! as seen below, the #1 and #3 cylinders are almost empty, and the #2 is pretty much completely full at the same level as last night. and, as woody noted, the #1 and 3 pistons have clean rings around the edges!

Posted Image

b) i can't find this check valve for the life of me. i'm not sure what you're seeing in the pics, but i think it's a trick of the light. there's nothing for at least 2 inches down in the block, and at least an inch in the head (but the check valve wouldn't be in the head, right?). see pics below, hopefully you can see what i mean. are we sure that a '96 engine would have this check valve?

Posted Image
Posted Image

if i can't find this valve, i assume i have to get one somewhere -- and you can't buy 'em, right? so should i start pulling apart the junkyards? figuring this out is urgent cause it's a bit of a journey to the nearest JY.

i'll be getting to work on the cam/lifters next.
the close up reveals a light and shadow trick.......
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Engine Tech & Diagnostics · Next Topic »
Add Reply