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| dirty valve and ring job -- with pics | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 21 2015, 10:45 PM (5,348 Views) | |
| freegeo | Jan 22 2015, 07:26 PM Post #16 |
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if you still need a oil check valve pm me. i have a couple spares. |
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| brush | Jan 22 2015, 07:39 PM Post #17 |
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yes i do! pm sent... |
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| brush | Jan 22 2015, 08:10 PM Post #18 |
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ok, pics of the valves, before cleaning (except the leftmost -- they're in order 1-2-3 left to right):![]() closeup of #3 valves, the "burned" one with bad compression: ![]() and here the intake valves are after cleaning, the tops: ![]() and the bottoms: ![]() interestingly, the #1 cleaned up the best, then the #3, but the #2 was most varnished/hardest to fully clean. i'm almost tempted to buy a new intake valve for this one. ideas why the one with tight rings is the one that is hardest to clean? my main question with the intake valves is how perfectionist to be in cleaning them -- do i keep scrubbing till they look pristine, or just until i'm not getting any actual crud off? also, here's a pic of the valve seats and guides. i haven't heard anything about replacing these if they're not showing signs of failure, right? anything i should look for? the complete gasket set i got includes valve stem seals, so i'll use new ones of those. (it's hard as heck not to lose the keepers! geez! dumb luck that i found them all after they went bouncing when i pulled the springs...) i've also pulled all the bolts and nuts on the oil pan, but it seems stuck ... maybe the RTV is holding it? any ideas? have stuff to do now, will get back to it tomorrow. |
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| dayle1960 | Jan 22 2015, 08:22 PM Post #19 |
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Fastest Hampster EVER
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What did you use to clean the valves? When I do mine I slap a 6" brass wire onto my grinder and run them on it. Works like a charm. (Talk about down and dirty ) I bet between now and when you install the valves you will loose a keeper again. Make sure your work space is clean of debris and when they pop out, you have the ability to track where they go. A clean shop helps that immensly.Don't forget to get some lapping compound for the valves. Spend some time spinning the valves in the holes so the mating surfaces will be nice and true. Lessens the possibility of burning a valve due to unevenness while lapping. |
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| cwatkin | Jan 22 2015, 08:50 PM Post #20 |
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You might consider getting a good used engine or a JDM as suggested if this one doesn't work. It sounds like this engine has been nothing but problems for you. I traded a $350 .30-30 rifle for a G10 and it was a good one. I gave it a good look over and it looked like it had lived a clean life in the past so I went for it. I have been very happy! I hear the odds of finding a decent used engine are very small but I did get one from a 1993 that had rusted in two. Conor |
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| perfesser | Jan 23 2015, 10:40 AM Post #21 |
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Elite Member - Former Metro owner
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GMF member clarkdw (3Tech) has come up with the best tool you'll ever use for installing and removing Geo keepers. Best $20- you'll ever spend. There's a thread about it somewhere ... |
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| brush | Jan 23 2015, 08:49 PM Post #22 |
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all right, now pics of the pistons. (fwiw, the oil pan was just a little stuck with rtv, pried off easy. there was a gasket too, which i understand is a no-no with this '96 engine?) here are the pistons, bearing, rings laid out 1-2-3: ![]() and reverse, to see the tops (ie. 3-2-1): ![]() here's a closeup of the #3 bearings, which is similar to all of them, and i think they're fine? ![]() there was no up-down play in the rods, just a little side-to-side that i think is normal in the wrist pins. i think this part is fine.... more evidence of oil getting through the #3, though, is varnish in that bore: ![]() i'm not sure if you can see it, but there's a little discoloration in the farside of the #3 bore. there's no obvious wear on the rings, but i'm not sure what i'd be looking for. here are my main questions: 1) i got a micrometer accurate allegedly to 1/2 a thousandth. what are the key measurements to check whether the bore needs machining (at least for info's sake)? the #3 cylinder was tighter than the others coming out -- might be out of round. the bottom-end rebuild guide says different years have different tolerances; anyone have a link to the numbers handy? 2) exactly how clean do i need to get the exhaust valve openings (from combustion chamber to exhaust)? they're pretty gnarly, and i'm not sure i'm going to be able to get the perfect -- i figure the key areas are everywhere near where the valve seats, right? 3) what do i look for in verifying the valve seats are ok? a couple came out and they seem fine enough... 4) i've been cleaning the lifters, and they definitely came out hard/unmoving. i have the impression that's normal? anyway, they go back together fine -- i've been using silicone spray to lube them after the cleaning, any concerns with that? 5) where does the EGR port in the intake go? i've scraping around in there as far as i can from the side attached to the head, but it's all angles and i need to try and get at it from the other side. 6) the oil ports all seem suspiciously clean. is there somewhere i'm not looking? anyone have a pic of the oil port locations to focus on in head-cleaning? thanks everyone! soon it'll be time to put things back together -- i'll probably get to that on monday. Edited by brush, Jan 23 2015, 08:54 PM.
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| perfesser | Jan 23 2015, 10:55 PM Post #23 |
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Elite Member - Former Metro owner
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This is where the FSM comes in real handy. Every question you just asked is answered in Chapter 6. |
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| snowfish | Jan 24 2015, 10:08 AM Post #24 |
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Basic GearHead
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And doing this, without it, is very concerning.
Hopefully that means you have two. A micrometer and a bore gauge.
The machine shop, that's re-surfacing the head, and doing the valve, will clean it up as well.
This confirms that you should let the machine shop do their job.
Should be fine as long as the lifters have some spring now.
All the way to the throttle body throat. Ream it out with a cable, on a drill, and carb cleaner. Blast it dry with compressed air. The exhaust manifold port needs to be clear as well.
Again, the machine shop should have this taken care of.
Sounds like this whole deal is an exercise in taking it apart, putting it back together, adding some random parts, and hoping for the best. Not having the specs, before hand, or a FSM, is not good. All the measuring, inspecting, and looking is worthless if there's nothing to reference. The internet will not build your engine. In the end, we're all on our own. We all need to realize our limitations. Doing our personal best, believe it or not, sometimes does not cut it, and is a recipe for disaster. I wish that I could help more. But you appear to be determined to experience this for yourself. I can't point fingers. I've been there more than once. But I'm a pretty slow learner. |
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| perfesser | Jan 24 2015, 11:07 AM Post #25 |
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Elite Member - Former Metro owner
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Actually, 0.0005" is an interpolation. If you can't measure to 0.0001", you're flying blind. You'll need to measure in the 0-1", 1-2" and 2-3" ranges, and also measure to the same degree of precision in the 2-3" range in an internal bore. Anything less and you really don't know where you are. Also, unless you have a ball end on your micrometer, there's no way you can measure your crank and rod bearings in any meaningful manner. If you haven't already found it, you should read my Engine Build Log. Not because I wrote it, but because there are extensive and worthwhile discussions about measurement from some of the masters who are no longer with us. I may have gotten a bit OCD on mine, but it runs as good as ever a G10 ran. |
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| dayle1960 | Jan 24 2015, 04:30 PM Post #26 |
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Fastest Hampster EVER
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Shhhhhhhh.......don't tell anybody I said this, but on all of my rebuilds I have never mic'ed anything. Down and dirty means just that. Buy parts necessary for the rebuild and slap it all together. I do like to hone the cylinders, though. In my opinion, the G10 is a very hardy engine which can take a lot of abuse. How many engines do you know of can still run with very low compression on all cylinders? Remember........don't tell anybody I've been doing this. Shhhhhh. |
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| myredvert | Jan 24 2015, 07:52 PM Post #27 |
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myredvert
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Another little secret... You don't lose your mancard if you are actually inclined to follow the FSM instructions, measure and plan parts replacement in accordance with the FSM rebuild procedure, and use a machine shop to ensure everything is done properly IF you want to have to have an engine that performs far better than a cheap, unmeasured, and unplanned rebuild ever can. ![]() You may not always get what you pay for when you pay the price of doing a proper rebuild, but you never can get one that performs the way it was designed to if you don't. By doing a cheap rebuild and having a running engine, you prove that it is possible to do it that way and have a running engine, instead of a great one. You do seem to overlook the fact that there is also a scary amount of proof around here virtually every day that there is a chance it won't turn out so well when the proper procedures are ignored, and the rebuild will need a rebuild. Decide how good of an engine you want, and choose your machine shop and rebuilder wisely...
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| brush | Jan 25 2015, 12:56 AM Post #28 |
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hi folks, perfessor, i just read that engine rebuild log and it's a beautiful job you did, in a whole bunch of ways. kudos! maybe one day i'll have the budget to do that. atm though, getting a bore gauge would almost double the cost so far. it does make sense that in order to spec things out -- whether the micrometer i have is accurate enough or not -- would require some sort of t-gauge tool like the pics from perfessor's post. someone was suggesting some kind of compass with a sideways point on the tips -- but, also, that would be a hack. frankly, for my 100% first time tear-down, i think my goal will be what hanuman said way back when: just hone the cylinders, re-ring, and replace the valves. and, um, maybe i'll try that "hard acceleration" wear-in trick from the link in your thread, perfessor, in case it helps the rings seat better! regarding an fsm -- well, snowfish, you're right. i'd rather i had one. on the other hand, despite the looming fact it really would be better for the relationships in my life if the car at least gets A->B when i put it back together -- so there's some pressure -- still, i'm having a ball. (thanks for the vote of confidence there dayle! )thanks for the tips on the EGR intake port etc. (i did get the exhaust port clear already.) i'll report more on mon or tue. Edited by brush, Jan 25 2015, 01:01 AM.
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| ssssteve | Jan 25 2015, 09:18 AM Post #29 |
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Elite Member
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That will do the job! |
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| sphenicie | Jan 25 2015, 09:43 AM Post #30 |
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ABSOLUTELY !! it is the best thing since canned beer! |
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) I bet between now and when you install the valves you will loose a keeper again. Make sure your work space is clean of debris and when they pop out, you have the ability to track where they go. A clean shop helps that immensly.




All the measuring, inspecting, and looking is worthless if there's nothing to reference.
I wish that I could help more. But you appear to be determined to experience this for yourself.
I can't point fingers.


9:29 AM Jul 11