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dirty valve and ring job -- with pics
Topic Started: Jan 21 2015, 10:45 PM (5,346 Views)
brush
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shoot, lost my big reply. here's the bones:

tnx for honing tips! only direction i saw elsewhere on site said 1 min was normal, so hopefully this input will help others!

tnx snowfish on the dry-install for head gasket, i'll be doing that next -- and was wondering about copper spray. so - no! as for clean workshop -- i'm doing better, but i agree it could be cleaner. it's an outdoor barn! try to do careful wipe before anything goes in.

tnx everyone else too.

list of things haven't mentioned:

1) cleaned lifters down to mini-spring and ball -- and reassembled right way round after reading las vegas pizza thread!! lol.

2) cleaned out completely clogged egr valve, and intake passageway.

now, pics:

as i said, i reinstalled the valve-train. i didn't lose any keepers!! someone mentioned using a piece of hose inside a socket, so here's what i did:

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fwiw, some sites elsewhere mention making sure that there's a gap on both sides of the keepers-- that they're not touching. no one here mentioned that, so i ignored it. ;)

so here's the head put back together except for the valve cover:

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ok, the poor cylinders. here they are after honing. you can see the dark patch in #3 -- which is a very slight deformity of the cylinder wall, barely noticeable with the fingers, and which is definitely my biggest concern. :( we'll see what happens, and how long it takes for dire warnings to be actualized. :ermm: at least the strange brown color in the first pic is just weird flash reflections.

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then i put the cylinders in, using an autozone loaner ring clamp.

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note in second pic the oil check valve now IN the block! wooot! thanks to freegeo!

and here's the bottom end, snugged up.

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finally, i spent lots of time fine-tuning the gasket removal. geez, you can go forever with that razorblade!

particularly challenging was the oil pan gasket (cork + sealant i think), esp. on the transmission side. no place to work! doing my best...

all right. today: put on the head gasket, the head, the valve cover, the timing belt, pulleys, and EGR valve. then dizzy and plugs/wires and all the little wires and hoses that are flopping about.

take a break and pray.

REMEMBER to put in coolant, flush it, the put in more. and oil. battery cable.

then fire her up! and if she runs, run her hard with lots of high rpms (how to get that in an automatic?) and engine braking, for 20-30 miles.

that's the plan. you've got front row seats. :lol
Edited by brush, Jan 30 2015, 01:19 PM.
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chessir


Hey Brush,
When you did the tiny ball and spring for the lifters does the spring go in the cap first or does the ball go first.Supposedly the spring is tapered and should be oriented properly. Also the little retainer had a habit of popping of on reaasembly for me. I went with GG's method where he does not dissassemble the ball/spring assembly but instead he submerged the assembly in a sonic cleaner/ bath for cleaning.GG's method worked fine for me when he gave me a set of lifters redone by this method.
I mentioned this because my first rebuilt would not start with home rebuilt lifters. I went to a JY and got a set of lifters to replace my rebuilts and she started right up.FYI

BTW- Nice detailed photos. Although I did not see the oil valve in any of them . Perhaps it's sunk toofar to show.
Edited by chessir, Jan 30 2015, 05:33 PM.
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brush
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hi chessir -- the spring goes in first, then the ball, i believe. i disassembled completely the first time, but after that i just took the cap off but kept the spring in and sprayed it. didn't see a difference in orientation -- could be an issue? we'll see.

tightening head bolts down. cleaned out the bolt holes as best i could, but didn't use brake cleaner to remove oil! oh no -- torquing down bolts, getting strange thing of bolts "slipping" as i torque around 45 ft-lbs -- torque goes down as it "slips" with click sound, torques up again, does it again, etc. read up on it and seems lube can make torque read lower than spec when bolt is adequately seated. might be my issue. i'll try to get 'em all fairly snug, and then keep an eagle eye on the gasket...

EDIT: ya, hard to see the oil check valve. you'll see it in next batch of pics in a few...
Edited by brush, Jan 30 2015, 05:35 PM.
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myredvert
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myredvert

Quote:
 
read up on it and seems lube can make torque read lower than spec
Incorrect. Oil will require less torque for the same amount of rotation without oil, or achieve more rotation at the same torque, but do not confuse that with "spec." Spec is what the designers specify in the rebuild instructions.

In this case the FSM instructions (spec) for installing the cylinder head bolts includes using engine oil on the bolts during installation.

Did you use new head bolts, or re-use the old ones?
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brush
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thanks, myredvert. good clarification. i used new headbolts (though the old ones seem fine), and my understanding is that for a '96 1.0 the bolts would be torque-to-yield, which should not be oiled. (at least that's what i read when i paused halfway through installing them. yes, i should have read up on it before, i agree.) am i mistaken that they should go on dry? that would be comforting... though i would then be uncertain what's causing the stick/slip -- now at around 50 ft/lbs, where i stopped not wanting to strip/snap/crack anything.
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brush
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ok, more pics.

first, final versions of the head and block (you can see check valve now):

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next, comparison of old and new head gaskets. the new one has very small oil holes on the top side! as per suggestion on this site, i tried to enlargen using a variety of blades, drills, and the like. i tried to avoid bending or damaging the gasket in the areas that would be compressed by the metal, and used the plastic to avoid touching other areas, but it's a challenge and i'd rather not have to do this. but the idea of interrupted oil flow is worse, i think?

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ok, then tightened the head bolts as described above. we'll see how that goes... hmmm. ;)

then attached intake and exhaust, also dry... i couldn't get torque wrench into the lower bolts, so i used a torque for the final stages of the top bolts and then got a feel for it using small wrenches, and used those on the lower bolts "by feel", comparing them to the upper ones. i'm not sure how other folk do it. here's a pic showing what i mean, though that's ridiculous. ;)

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ok, how many people noticed i had the cam cover bolts in the head in the wrong places? obviously, they're supposed to be with the tall ones on the two ends for the valve cover, like so:

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and i also took off the distributor gear body and put on a new gasket, with a bit of blue RTV (very thin), which i'm not sure was a good idea. ;)

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finally, the timing belt. i guess you can't really see the timing marks in this, but the one on the cam with the dot is pointing up, and the 1 cylinder is TDC.

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more to come -- and first crank report!
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perfesser
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Elite Member - Former Metro owner

I was going to comment on your valve cover bolts, but I got here too late. Besides, you're a bright kid. I figured you'd be able to tell something was amiss when you tried to put the valve cover on!! :D :D :D
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brush
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ok, folks, the moment you've all been waiting for! :drool

first, a few more mistakes i made: yes, perfessor, i got to putting the valve cover on and was confused. ;) then figured it out... something that might possibly slip by the uninitiated, however, is putting back the little valve cover grommets. i put mine back without them, then found them later in my screw bowl and remembered. here they are, waiting for the screws:

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however, the other main "fail" was putting on the oil cover. i used just blue RTV, since folks have suggested the newer geos shouldn't have a gasket. (in my case, since the ECU is a '93, there's actually no sensor, so i'm thinking of maybe using the cork gasket when i redo it. input?)

i had also left the exhaust on, as JM has mentioned is possible. and it IS possible -- it's just REALLY hard to put the oil pan back on with sticky RTV everywhere while trying to get the oil pickup screwed back in with the oil pan half on. i screwed it up, smudged the RTV several times before i got it, and then tried to fix it by dabbing more on. far from ideal. anyway, here's an image of the RTV BEFORE i smudged and mucked it up while installing, and then in the midst of the process:

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in short, i would suggest either removing the exhaust or using cork. but does anyone have experience getting the RTV in there without failing, with exhaust in place?

anyway, after all this i reinstalled the EGR, the distributor, the spark and plugs, all the hanging hoses and wires (of which very few, since i left the intake/TB in -- i think this saved a lot of time and mistakes). i also replaced backwards the little protection shield that goes below the cam sprocket -- which i left for now, will fix later -- and so didn't put on the timing cover, and may leave it off. here it is all together:

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and eventually i filled the coolant and the oil, went outside and prayed, and ... turned the key! here's what happened:



unfortunately, the video cuts off, but -- it worked!! started, idled pretty even, ran fine. loud valvetrain because the lifters were dry, but that cleared up as JM predicted. i ran for 30 mins w/ rad cap off letting it burp, then drove it hard (accelerate, engine brake, repeat) to the parts store to get a new oil filter, and changed the oil.

where i'm at: i largely expect the head gasket to fail. i realized overnight with a sinking feeling that even though i tried to get all the liquid out of the head bolt holes using a straw, there's probably some still in there because i didn't use compressed air. i assumed the head bolts had space down there, but i don't know, and am concerned that's a source of the strange "slipping" behavior.

also, i looked closely at the head bolt washers, and they are cracked! with a sinking, i realized that i washed all the things i was putting in the engine, but not the areas the bolts sealed to! my guess is there's small grit, and the pressure of the bolt cracked the washers. another lesson: even if you're doing it "dirty", wash the bolt holes and the contact area on the head!

at any rate, i'm pretty resigned to putting on a new HG fairly soon.

still -- at least for now, it worked! yay!

there also IS a small oil leak from the pan gasket. i tried to cover it with more RTV, but expect that to fail. will redo soon. but overall, have to say i'm fairly relieved.

and VERY grateful to everyone here.

plan to give more updates as we see things go over time. but ... this has been a great learning process. thanks! :cheers
Edited by brush, Feb 1 2015, 05:15 PM.
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freegeo
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congrats on getting it running! :cheers

You should probably do a compression test and see where your engine is at since doing this.

Keep us updated as you get to put some miles on it.
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chessir


Congrats on your first rebuilt. Any smoking when you started it up? The manual says not to reuse the old grommets but to use new grommets. On my virts I have left them off with no adverse results. Did you also leave the timing spring off? Are you saying all your newly installed new head bolt spacers were all cracked? Something really wrong here.
Edited by chessir, Feb 1 2015, 07:52 PM.
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perfesser
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freegeo
Feb 1 2015, 06:09 PM
congrats on getting it running! :cheers

You should probably do a compression test and see where your engine is at since doing this.

Keep us updated as you get to put some miles on it.
A compression test now is an interesting data point, but it will increase as the rings seat. Do another test again in about 4-5k miles and you'll get a better idea of how good it is.
Edited by perfesser, Feb 2 2015, 03:59 PM.
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brush
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well, here's an update -- and a request for yet more support, for those willing to stay with the sordid tale. :hiding

short version: partner crashed geo, also drove it on no oil. shavings in pan, stuck pressure valve. jeepers.

first, the initial compression check after crazy-hard accelerate/decelerate break-in for 30 miles was 185-175-165, according to the original tester (that previously measured 125 in #3). but as perfesser says, rings still need to seat more.

as i think i mentioned, the first oil pan attempt leaked, so i did it again. i tried to remove the exhaust but one of the bolts is super-stuck, despite lots of pb-blaster and 120 ft-lbs pressure. so rather than break something i just finagled the pan on again. i first tried the cork, but that doesn't work because of the empty slot for the crank sensor (96 engine on 93 vehicle). so blue rtv again. i tried to account for the seam where it leaked before by adding extra there, probably a bad idea. torqued in two phases, latter trying to get it to full spec, but hard to do in places. definitely required more rotations than the "1/4 to 1/2" the rtv recommended.

anyway, it seemed not to leak, so i turned it over to partner with instruction to check oil regularly. i guess this wasn't fully internalized or the procedure on how to do so wasn't clear. :ahem

a week or two later, partner smashed headlight and bumper drags. i can't look at it, but make sure the radiator is fine (it's fine) and they drive it to someone else to get headlight and bumper fixed. two more weeks later, finally gets back, they drive it a couple times, then i get a call: crazy clatter (ie. lifters) + oil pressure light! darn! it takes 3 fricking quarts to get back to full! i ask: you were checking the oil, right? um, i guess not.

now, but not originally, when running (but not at rest) there's a major leak in the oil pan from the exact same place as before, the front seam with the oil pump that's a bit uneven.

with full oil the first time i drive it it's fine. the next time, it starts then dies, then won't start at all -- just crank crank. look online and figure it's the oil pressure relief valve. after a day it starts enough to drive up ramp, i pull the pan and find this:

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the pieces i checked are non-ferrous. the color is silver, no sign of goldish babbitt material.

note the blue rtv, clearly not cool, a sign i used too much. maybe clogged something? also, possibly small strands of wirebrush from cleaning.

i pull the valve cover, and there's no obvious signs of wear on the cam/lifters (those are ferrous, right?). i looked briefly at rod bearings, no obvious sings of gouging, and i can't get the rod to wiggle up and down -- is there a best way to test for play?

i pulled the oil pressure valve spring, and tried to get the little piston thing with my (weak) magnet, or with needle-nose, no go. i sprayed carb cleaner up there, will see if it helps.

i figure two main options of what happened:

1) there was a consistent leak from the pan -> low oil -> sludgy oil -> stuck valve, and grinding up something or other

2) no leak at first -> something caused valve to stick (or maybe even was before?) -> high oil pressure caused pan seal to fail -> sludge/grinding metal

so here's my basic questions:

1) is there a way to unstick the oil pressure valve w/o access to a lathe to turn a metal rod to exacting precision? uber-magnets? do they have those at harbor-freight?

2) is there a chance those metal shavings are from anything non-essential? how can i tell, ideally w/o pulling the head? if i pull the head, i think it'll be just to see, i'm nearly done with this engine.

3) the one thing i can imagine doing (other than just cleaning out the pan, unsticking the valve, and putting it back to see if it'll work for a little while until we figure out how to get another engine/car) is replacing the oil pump, if that's the source of shavings and problems. is there a quickish way to get reasonably confident that's the problem?

there are lessons to be learned here. "you told me so." feel free to say it: take more time to have everything super-clean, don't work on cars that other people drive, just swap an engine already! yup.

one note: if i do get another car somewhere, i hope it'll be a geo. i'd like to keep working on 'em, despite all this! (and maybe despite your better judgement.)

thanks tons, everyone!
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perfesser
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Elite Member - Former Metro owner

Are you sure that when you had the engine open before you cleaned everything, everywhere? If not it is possible that this debris is from before. Don't bet next month's mortgage on it, though.

Chunks only come from interference between surfaces moving against each other. I can't think of any unimportant or non-critical moving parts in an engine. This is not a good finding!

Running three quarts low when you have less than four to start with is the joker. Anything is possible. Only way to tell for sure is to pull and disassemble the engine. While it's apart, be sure to measure every clearance and part as shown in the FSM.

This has been a good learning experience for you. Now that you've had it, there's no need to do it again! If your partner treats cars as consumer appliances, guess whose responsibility it now is to keep a close eye on things?

Good luck!
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PTA2PTB
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I'm totally awesome! I swear.

brush
Mar 10 2015, 03:37 PM
short version: partner crashed geo, also drove it on no oil. shavings in pan, stuck pressure valve. jeepers.


anyway, it seemed not to leak, so i turned it over to partner with instruction to check oil regularly. i guess this wasn't fully internalized or the procedure on how to do so wasn't clear. :ahem

a week or two later, partner smashed headlight and bumper drags. i can't look at it, but make sure the radiator is fine (it's fine) and they drive it to someone else to get headlight and bumper fixed. two more weeks later, finally gets back, they drive it a couple times, then i get a call: crazy clatter (ie. lifters) + oil pressure light! darn! it takes 3 fricking quarts to get back to full! i ask: you were checking the oil, right? um, i guess not.

Wow! That totally sucks, dude!

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, especially after all you put into it, but I think it's time you get rid of that one, and go out and find you a new................partner. ;)

I'd still keep the car, though, and try to fix it. Good luck.
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brush
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good news! had you noticed i was maybe a bit frustrated? :shake well, apparently i was too frustrated to be as careful as i should. i just looked at the bottom of the rod bearings, inside the caps -- no play, no sound of knock, the bottom bearings ok at first glance, i figure they're fine. but i went out just now with a friend and we also looked at the top bearings (by taking the rods off the crank), and #2 and #3 are totally shot! ie. melting/flaking out the sides! definitely the source of at least the bulk of the metal.

he's feeling bored, so he's going to take the main journals off too and check those bearings. even though there's no play.

so i feel much better. i'll look for johnny mullet's warning about the wrong bearing size (anyone have a link?) but hopefully they shouldn't be too hard to find.

the other main question is still how to get that stuck pressure valve loose. we were considering replacing the oil pump -- for $50 off ebay? -- which of course would mean we could ignore the valve. but i'd hate to replace the pump if there's nothing wrong with it.

does it make sense to try and get the valve fixed, then put things back together and just test the oil pressure with a manual gauge? if the oil pressure is good, does that mean the pump is likely fine?

oh, btw, some of you will be happy to know that i am, in fact, going to bite the bullet and acquire an FSM. :P

only question is -- a '93 for the body, or a '96 for the engine!? any suggestions?

thanks again, everyone.

ps: yes. this car or another -- if we're going to be sharing it, and i'm fixing it, then we're definitely going to be having a tutorial in car care, checking fluids, basic noise interpretation, and basically "STOP if it's possibly a bit strange!!".
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