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ISC not working; possible problem with relay
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Topic Started: Jan 27 2015, 01:02 PM (5,935 Views)
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TripleThreat
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Jan 30 2015, 02:16 AM
Post #16
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THANKS GMF!
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freegeo
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Jan 30 2015, 02:44 AM
Post #17
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- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 02:16 AM
A) What if any testing have you done with the TPS? http://geometroforum.com/topic/1341780/1/ This is critical for the ISC to work right. B) Have you considered trying different throttle body with an ISC? Correction, I saw you have changed the ISC, that may be part of the issue. I heard removing them from the TBI can damage them, maybe someone else can elaborate? C) Has the ISC in your car ever worked right since you have owned it? D) Have you changed the idle stop screw that comes from the factory with a black cap on it? (Which you should never do) E) Have you ever pushed on the plunger trying to force the ISC to retract? This ruins them I ask because it seems that most members here do not have ISC type TBI units here or at least they are not usually very vocal about it since I started on this forum when I bought mine. I have been down this road myself with my 94' because it has the "enhanced emissions" with the ISC and because it is not OBDII like yours, it is an even big PITA to diagnose!
I have done nothing to the tps. Just this week I put a whole throttle body With TPS and ISC on it. Didn't adjust anything.
c)I don't know I bought it and it didn't run right. Rebuilt the motor and this is what I have. No past history of the car.
d) Still has the black cap, no adjustments made.
E) not that i remember.
I did start it tonight after work and now it runs a t 1500 rpm and doesn't idle down once warmed up.
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Hanuman
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Jan 30 2015, 03:09 AM
Post #18
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"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"
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have you verified that your isc hasnt failed, is stuck, or is damaged?
the 2nd isc you purchased to swap out....did you verify it also is functional? (even brandnew parts can be bad)
we know the bomb-proof ECM is good.
you have verified the wiring is good, no "broken" wires.
...........................................................................
1# ....assuming the ISC is fully functional this leaves a problem with the grounding or the positive wiring. the voltage while a circuit is under load is what matters. some where in your wiring harness is corrosion or physical damage that is increasing the electrical resistance while underload/or causing a short to a unwanted ground.
unplug the connectors and use a bright flash light to look at the contacts. do this in the dark, the day light and flash light will fight each other.....you wont be able to see as well during the day. lightly tug on wires at the connector....often times i find poor connections in the harness. any discoloration on a contact will effect voltage.
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TripleThreat
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Jan 30 2015, 03:36 AM
Post #19
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THANKS GMF!
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Hanuman
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Jan 30 2015, 03:52 AM
Post #20
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"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"
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- freegeo
- Jan 30 2015, 02:44 AM
- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 02:16 AM
A) What if any testing have you done with the TPS? http://geometroforum.com/topic/1341780/1/ This is critical for the ISC to work right. B) Have you considered trying different throttle body with an ISC? Correction, I saw you have changed the ISC, that may be part of the issue. I heard removing them from the TBI can damage them, maybe someone else can elaborate? C) Has the ISC in your car ever worked right since you have owned it? D) Have you changed the idle stop screw that comes from the factory with a black cap on it? (Which you should never do) E) Have you ever pushed on the plunger trying to force the ISC to retract? This ruins them I ask because it seems that most members here do not have ISC type TBI units here or at least they are not usually very vocal about it since I started on this forum when I bought mine. I have been down this road myself with my 94' because it has the "enhanced emissions" with the ISC and because it is not OBDII like yours, it is an even big PITA to diagnose!
I have done nothing to the tps. Just this week I put a whole throttle body With TPS and ISC on it. Didn't adjust anything. c)I don't know I bought it and it didn't run right. Rebuilt the motor and this is what I have. No past history of the car. d) Still has the black cap, no adjustments made. E) not that i remember. I did start it tonight after work and now it runs a t 1500 rpm and doesn't idle down once warmed up. when engine is warm, are the small coolant lines to and from the throttle body nice and hot?
fast non pulsing idle on a warmed up engine while not rolling means the computer thinks the engine is cold, or the ISC has a problem internally.
everything from my previose post still would apply to this situation. .........problem with ISC or wiring harness.
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Metromightymouse
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Jan 30 2015, 04:22 AM
Post #21
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Powdercoat Wizard
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- TripleThreat
- Jan 29 2015, 11:57 PM
I love this forum and no offense to anyone but I have noticed everyone loves to badger you about grounds if they don't know the answer. Don't get me wrong, having bad ground connections can create a whole lot of issues that can be difficult to reproduce and track down. But it's not the answer to everything.
This is why I have a few different throttle bodies that have ISC's on them as spares. I doubt anyone will be offended, no worries.
Here is what happens; Member X says he has some odd problem. Experienced Member says to clean the grounds. Member X doesn't respond and goes on talking about the issue and all the stuff he's tried. He's at a loss. Experienced Member asks "did you clean your grounds?" Member X says "I checked them, they're good and tight." Experienced Member asks "yes, but did you clean them?" Member X says "they haven't been touched, they are still tight so they should be fine, shouldn't they?" Experienced Member takes aspirin for the headache from beating his head against the keyboard, then gets a new keyboard out of the stack he has ready for just this occasion and types "CLEAN YOUR &*#&((% GROUNDS". After backspacing he then types the whole spiel about grounds again and requests that he actually remove and clean them. Mysteriously Member X then either never posts again or comes back singing the praises of how easy that was and they should have listened.
It ends up coming off as really insulting to someone who actually did clean the grounds, possibly even before starting the thread, but experience has dictated that if it isn't absolutely clear the grounds were removed, cleaned, and securely reattached, we better ask again.
Those of us that read a lot of threads are also guilty of not remembering something we read on page one yesterday when we are on page two today.
So, are you sure your grounds are clean and shiny and solidly attached?
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Hanuman
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Jan 30 2015, 04:24 AM
Post #22
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"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"
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- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 03:36 AM
- freegeo
- Jan 30 2015, 02:44 AM
- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 02:16 AM
A) What if any testing have you done with the TPS? http://geometroforum.com/topic/1341780/1/ This is critical for the ISC to work right. B) Have you considered trying different throttle body with an ISC? Correction, I saw you have changed the ISC, that may be part of the issue. I heard removing them from the TBI can damage them, maybe someone else can elaborate? C) Has the ISC in your car ever worked right since you have owned it? D) Have you changed the idle stop screw that comes from the factory with a black cap on it? (Which you should never do) E) Have you ever pushed on the plunger trying to force the ISC to retract? This ruins them I ask because it seems that most members here do not have ISC type TBI units here or at least they are not usually very vocal about it since I started on this forum when I bought mine. I have been down this road myself with my 94' because it has the "enhanced emissions" with the ISC and because it is not OBDII like yours, it is an even big PITA to diagnose!
I have done nothing to the tps. Just this week I put a whole throttle body With TPS and ISC on it. Didn't adjust anything. c)I don't know I bought it and it didn't run right. Rebuilt the motor and this is what I have. No past history of the car. d) Still has the black cap, no adjustments made. E) not that i remember. I did start it tonight after work and now it runs a t 1500 rpm and doesn't idle down once warmed up.
Sounds like you need to do first things first and set the TPS to me. But just to make sure is this thing idling steady at whatever rpm its idlig at? if not, have you checked for vacuum leaks with starting fluid? Follow that procedure I posted the link to TPS reports. Stack appropriate feeler gauges to block the throttle open as specified and begin testing the back probed 1 & 3 connectors as specified while making slight adjustments within the .98 to 1.02 volt speficied range. This will dramatically change your idle characteristics and change how lean or rich the mixture is as well as change when or if the ISC would recieve a command from the ECM to raise or lower the RPM's for things like a/c being turned on, headlights etc... Mine took about 3 hrs to find the sweet spot because I didn't have an assistant and would make a tenth-volt adjustment, unblock throttle, start engine and note the difference. You need a good voltmeter, sewing needles, feeler gauges and alligator clip jumper wires. Just because YOU never changed the TPS doesn't mean it was ever set right before. Additionally with all the variables changed, the ECM may need a different setting to account for things that may be different. I am by no means an expert but this was one of the many things I have dealt with on mine. You are starting from scratch with a rebuilt engine that you have no idea was running Right before or not with regard to engine management. It's going to take some serious persistence and patience to wrangle this puppy back to where it needs to be. Just do yourself a favor, DO NOT try to remove the black cap and change that throttle stop setting. It won't help and is not what controls your idle, unless someone has changed that setting. PS Hanuman is pretty sharp at this stuff, make sure you take a look at what he is suggesting too. thanks
i dont feel that the TPS/throttle stop screw are the problem..........heres why:
if the tps is out of adjustment one of two senariose occurs....... 1# when gas peddle is in idle position if the idle contact is to low ecm wont allow the fuel cut to occur while coasting because idle speed (throttle angle) are increased while coasting. faster warm up idle may surge due to throttle being increased beyond idle contacts.
2# idle contact to far. idle functions fine, but car surges at low/medium throttle. you are trying to accelerate, the computer see's to fast of a idle and engages fuel cut momentarly to lower idle speed. this is very common when sensor is wet...especialy on 89-91 with a throttle switch, or if TPS has a short.
if the throttle stop screw is overly adjusted idle speed will be to fast in relation ship to what the computer wants, it engages fuel cut mode momentarly to lower idle speed.....this is surging idle. a vacuum leak will cause the same thing. present after engine gets warm.
the symptoms dont fit a TPS or throttle stop screw. im not saying there isnt a underlying problem, but as of now the ISC just isnt funtioning right. if you test it, dont adjust it unless you are 800% positive its out of adjustment! the more potential problems, the harder it is to pin point the problem....personaly, i would get the isc functioning first, then check or adjust the tps. .....................................................................................
knowing how everything reacts like this, i have adjusted the TPS on both metros and trackers "free handed"
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Metromightymouse
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Jan 30 2015, 04:31 AM
Post #23
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Powdercoat Wizard
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- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 02:16 AM
A) What if any testing have you done with the TPS? http://geometroforum.com/topic/1341780/1/ This is critical for the ISC to work right. B) Have you considered trying different throttle body with an ISC? Correction, I saw you have changed the ISC, that may be part of the issue. I heard removing them from the TBI can damage them, maybe someone else can elaborate?C) Has the ISC in your car ever worked right since you have owned it? D) Have you changed the idle stop screw that comes from the factory with a black cap on it? (Which you should never do) E) Have you ever pushed on the plunger trying to force the ISC to retract? This ruins them I ask because it seems that most members here do not have ISC type TBI units here or at least they are not usually very vocal about it since I started on this forum when I bought mine. I have been down this road myself with my 94' because it has the "enhanced emissions" with the ISC and because it is not OBDII like yours, it is an even big PITA to diagnose!
I am at least the partial source of that little tidbit and it's from personal experience. It isn't a problem to remove it, just don't leave it plugged in and turn the car on (been a while, but I thing starting it is where everything goes bad, but it's safer to just say not to turn the car on).
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Hanuman
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Jan 30 2015, 04:43 AM
Post #24
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"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"
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- Metromightymouse
- Jan 30 2015, 04:22 AM
- TripleThreat
- Jan 29 2015, 11:57 PM
I love this forum and no offense to anyone but I have noticed everyone loves to badger you about grounds if they don't know the answer. Don't get me wrong, having bad ground connections can create a whole lot of issues that can be difficult to reproduce and track down. But it's not the answer to everything.
This is why I have a few different throttle bodies that have ISC's on them as spares.
I doubt anyone will be offended, no worries. Here is what happens; Member X says he has some odd problem. Experienced Member says to clean the grounds. Member X doesn't respond and goes on talking about the issue and all the stuff he's tried. He's at a loss. Experienced Member asks "did you clean your grounds?" Member X says "I checked them, they're good and tight." Experienced Member asks "yes, but did you clean them?" Member X says "they haven't been touched, they are still tight so they should be fine, shouldn't they?" Experienced Member takes aspirin for the headache from beating his head against the keyboard, then gets a new keyboard out of the stack he has ready for just this occasion and types "CLEAN YOUR &*#&((% GROUNDS". After backspacing he then types the whole spiel about grounds again and requests that he actually remove and clean them. Mysteriously Member X then either never posts again or comes back singing the praises of how easy that was and they should have listened. It ends up coming off as really insulting to someone who actually did clean the grounds, possibly even before starting the thread, but experience has dictated that if it isn't absolutely clear the grounds were removed, cleaned, and securely reattached, we better ask again. Those of us that read a lot of threads are also guilty of not remembering something we read on page one yesterday when we are on page two today. So, are you sure your grounds are clean and shiny and solidly attached? STOP READING MY MIND.....MMM
when im juggeling 10 threads all 2 weeks into the trouble shooting, dealing with local peoplle calling me or dropping by for a magical diagnosis, dealing with my own car who loves its gremlins, and 3 young kids.....you bet i will get confused.
i dont get frusteratedwhen other members direct the thread in what i would consider the wrong direction.......its a learning process.....believe it or not, i was once a new member on this forum.......using my extensive knowledge of subarus, older honda's, and air force equipment to suggest things that may be wrong, and being drowned out by the more experienced members at the time. it took a long time to realise that metros arennt wire like a normal car, and the computer programing is different than a normal car. once i under stood the relation ship between everything i was suggesting different problems.
i stress the grounding and positive electrical system so much because personal experience with metros in person has shown me over and over again just how much of a roll it plays in the cars operation. im to the point know i clean the grounds and postivesbefore i read the trouble codes......it plays that much of a roll. the trouble code is only what the computer can read as a problem and then it only has a small list of options to give you. just because a code says for example map sensor, doesnt mean the map sensorhas a problem, its just means thecomputer doesnt agree with the sensors out put. low voltage, poor grounds, damaged wiring all will effect the signal before it reaches the ECM.
my battery is going to die...must leave now. Hanuman
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Hanuman
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Jan 30 2015, 04:45 AM
Post #25
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"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"
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- Metromightymouse
- Jan 30 2015, 04:31 AM
- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 02:16 AM
A) What if any testing have you done with the TPS? http://geometroforum.com/topic/1341780/1/ This is critical for the ISC to work right. B) Have you considered trying different throttle body with an ISC? Correction, I saw you have changed the ISC, that may be part of the issue. I heard removing them from the TBI can damage them, maybe someone else can elaborate?C) Has the ISC in your car ever worked right since you have owned it? D) Have you changed the idle stop screw that comes from the factory with a black cap on it? (Which you should never do) E) Have you ever pushed on the plunger trying to force the ISC to retract? This ruins them I ask because it seems that most members here do not have ISC type TBI units here or at least they are not usually very vocal about it since I started on this forum when I bought mine. I have been down this road myself with my 94' because it has the "enhanced emissions" with the ISC and because it is not OBDII like yours, it is an even big PITA to diagnose!
I am at least the partial source of that little tidbit and it's from personal experience. It isn't a problem to remove it, just don't leave it plugged in and turn the car on (been a while, but I thing starting it is where everything goes bad, but it's safer to just say not to turn the car on).
ps.....drowning a thread in ten thouasand reponces can confuse us also.....lol (MMM is one of the experts as is MYREDVERT) good night MMM
Edited by Hanuman, Jan 30 2015, 04:48 AM.
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Metromightymouse
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Jan 30 2015, 04:57 AM
Post #26
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Powdercoat Wizard
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To sum up what I understand of where you are; (Assuming) The ISC has not been observed to move. The throttle body with ISC has been swapped with an assumed working unit. The individual wires have been checked and you have continuity between the ends. The ECU was swapped and the car ran but no change to the ISC.
If that is all true... you are in the Twilight Zone...
Or, some part that wasn't tested is the issue or your test failed to reveal the part with the problem.
I'm assuming you back probed the connectors to check the wires. If so, pull the connectors off and confirm the individual wires are still fully inserted and locked into place. If they don't lock, when you plug the connector in it will just push it out. If all the wires of a connector check out then plug it in and pull it out a few times to clear the corrosion and make good contact again. While it's unplugged look at the end and make sure none of the female spades have broken off or that the curled ends that lock onto the male spade are opened up or broken off. Swap in a different relay.
If that doesn't reveal anything or clear the problem then I would recheck all the wires and make certain that they are not broken or shorted. Next I would confirm the ISC is capable of moving. You have looked at the schematic and know which wires run the motor in the ISC, use a 9v battery or a couple of jumper wires to the battery and briefly touch the terminals for the motor. It should move. Reverse the wires and it should move the other direction. Just be careful not to over extend the plunger. Quick touches should move it a small amount and you just want to make sure it's moving freely.
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Woodie
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Jan 30 2015, 06:05 AM
Post #27
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- Hanuman
- Jan 30 2015, 04:43 AM
my battery is going to die...must leave now. Try cleaning your grounds.
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Metromightymouse
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Jan 30 2015, 06:10 AM
Post #28
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Powdercoat Wizard
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- Woodie
- Jan 30 2015, 06:05 AM
- Hanuman
- Jan 30 2015, 04:43 AM
my battery is going to die...must leave now.
Try cleaning your grounds.
It's official, Woodie is the MMM Member of the day!
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freegeo
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Jan 30 2015, 11:02 AM
Post #29
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- Hanuman
- Jan 30 2015, 03:09 AM
have you verified that your isc hasnt failed, is stuck, or is damaged?
the 2nd isc you purchased to swap out....did you verify it also is functional? (even brandnew parts can be bad)
we know the bomb-proof ECM is good.
you have verified the wiring is good, no "broken" wires.
...........................................................................
1# ....assuming the ISC is fully functional this leaves a problem with the grounding or the positive wiring. the voltage while a circuit is under load is what matters. some where in your wiring harness is corrosion or physical damage that is increasing the electrical resistance while underload/or causing a short to a unwanted ground.
unplug the connectors and use a bright flash light to look at the contacts. do this in the dark, the day light and flash light will fight each other.....you wont be able to see as well during the day. lightly tug on wires at the connector....often times i find poor connections in the harness. any discoloration on a contact will effect voltage. I have not tested this ISC. Is that were you need to apply 6 volt to the ISC motor and see if it moves?
I'll try and check the wire connections.
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freegeo
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Jan 30 2015, 11:16 AM
Post #30
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- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 03:36 AM
- freegeo
- Jan 30 2015, 02:44 AM
- TripleThreat
- Jan 30 2015, 02:16 AM
A) What if any testing have you done with the TPS? http://geometroforum.com/topic/1341780/1/ This is critical for the ISC to work right. B) Have you considered trying different throttle body with an ISC? Correction, I saw you have changed the ISC, that may be part of the issue. I heard removing them from the TBI can damage them, maybe someone else can elaborate? C) Has the ISC in your car ever worked right since you have owned it? D) Have you changed the idle stop screw that comes from the factory with a black cap on it? (Which you should never do) E) Have you ever pushed on the plunger trying to force the ISC to retract? This ruins them I ask because it seems that most members here do not have ISC type TBI units here or at least they are not usually very vocal about it since I started on this forum when I bought mine. I have been down this road myself with my 94' because it has the "enhanced emissions" with the ISC and because it is not OBDII like yours, it is an even big PITA to diagnose!
I have done nothing to the tps. Just this week I put a whole throttle body With TPS and ISC on it. Didn't adjust anything. c)I don't know I bought it and it didn't run right. Rebuilt the motor and this is what I have. No past history of the car. d) Still has the black cap, no adjustments made. E) not that i remember. I did start it tonight after work and now it runs a t 1500 rpm and doesn't idle down once warmed up.
Sounds like you need to do first things first and set the TPS to me. But just to make sure is this thing idling steady at whatever rpm its idlig at? if not, have you checked for vacuum leaks with starting fluid? Follow that procedure I posted the link to TPS reports. Stack appropriate feeler gauges to block the throttle open as specified and begin testing the back probed 1 & 3 connectors as specified while making slight adjustments within the .98 to 1.02 volt speficied range. This will dramatically change your idle characteristics and change how lean or rich the mixture is as well as change when or if the ISC would recieve a command from the ECM to raise or lower the RPM's for things like a/c being turned on, headlights etc... Mine took about 3 hrs to find the sweet spot because I didn't have an assistant and would make a tenth-volt adjustment, unblock throttle, start engine and note the difference. You need a good voltmeter, sewing needles, feeler gauges and alligator clip jumper wires. Just because YOU never changed the TPS doesn't mean it was ever set right before. Additionally with all the variables changed, the ECM may need a different setting to account for things that may be different. I am by no means an expert but this was one of the many things I have dealt with on mine. You are starting from scratch with a rebuilt engine that you have no idea was running Right before or not with regard to engine management. It's going to take some serious persistence and patience to wrangle this puppy back to where it needs to be. Just do yourself a favor, DO NOT try to remove the black cap and change that throttle stop setting. It won't help and is not what controls your idle, unless someone has changed that setting. PS Hanuman is pretty sharp at this stuff, make sure you take a look at what he is suggesting too. I have read some of that but need to finish it.
I read some of what Mwebb wrote in the tps report.
the ECM PCM needs input from closed throttle switch to activate idle circuitry AND to enable decel fuel cut off at Higher than 1200 rpm when throttle is closed
IF the closed throttle switch does not function as designed there will be idle problems BUT more important - NO decel fuel cutoff , fuel economy will suffer
I do not have any decel fuel cutoff either.
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