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ignition coil help!!!!!!!!
Topic Started: Mar 23 2015, 11:12 PM (2,425 Views)
Hanuman
"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"

faygoninja
Mar 25 2015, 11:42 PM
ok the p/u coil is blow out. now to find one on the cheap.....
this means you also had no fuel.

with out the pulse from the pick up coil, the computer cannot establish ignition timing.......if it cant establish ignition timing it wont call for fuel. period.
remember my rule: "spark, before fuel"

you may have a leaking injector......fuel under normal circumstances would be a fine cone. very hard to see at idle with out a flash light.
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Hanuman
"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"

scubaman
Mar 24 2015, 07:28 PM
My workmate had the same symptoms, and it was because the timing belt broke. Of course you can crank the engine but its just the bottom half that's moving. Follow the steps.
broken timing belt means distributor doesnt turn. means no signal from the pick up coil. .......no spark and no fuel injection.
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Hanuman
"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"

greenbean95
Mar 25 2015, 07:04 PM
Hanuman
Mar 24 2015, 02:13 AM
lets check for spark and for fuel...............follow my directions and report back

test for spark:
disconnect the center plug wire from the distributor that runs back to the coil.
insert a clean spark plug into the center plug wire.
grab jumper cables and connect the negative lead on one side to the battery negative post.
connect the other negative jumper cable clamp to the threads of the spark plug.
crank engine..............do you have spark?

check for fuel:
grab a bright flashlight anda friend.
remove the aircleaner housing from the throttle body. (remove wing nut, unbolt tab from valve cleaner)
have a friend crank the engine DO NOT CRANK AT FULL THROTTLE.....while they are cranking the engine shine the flashlight down the throttle body and watch just below the base of the injector.....you should see a fine cone of fuel being sprayed. the flashlight will reflect off the fuel making it easier to see.
is the injector spraying fuel?............

do you have fuel? Y/N
do you have spark? Y/N

................................................................
If no fuel and no spark then check all fuses with a dvom, and test all relays.....
are fuses and relays good? Y/N

if good, disconnect the crank position sensor and attempt to start at 1/4 throttle.....it may not idle with out holding the gas peddle down a little. cel will be on.

........Did it start? Y/N
My manual doesnt show me where the cam / crankshaft sensor is located on my 95 1 Ltr. Is it on the right side of the distributor? or where. Thanks for your time forum.
the cam position sensor (pick up coil) is inside the distributor under the rotor.
remove the cap. its black. 2 philips screws.
signal voltage while cranking is 0.10 to 0.40 volts A/C
star rotor to pick up coil gap is 0.2mm to 0.4mm

your 95 does not have a crank position sensor......thats 96+
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faygoninja


that is strange. after cranking the car a few times all you could smell was gas. maybe i do have a leak. seems like my carefree days of my metro are gone, now i gotta start getting her up to date with new components. i got the coil ordered it'll be here tomorrow and i'll get it on in the evening. that should do it as far as spark.
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faygoninja


what is the gap supposed to be on the dist pickup? i installed a new one but nothing changed. i hear the fuel pump start with ignition on, but still no spark. it is throwing the crank sensor code but i figured that just meant things are not working correctly. anyone know what causes the coil to blow apart this way?


i see its already above. i swear im too busy to function at this point.!!!!!
Edited by faygoninja, Mar 27 2015, 04:22 PM.
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faygoninja


i just got done adjusting the new pick up coil and it starts!!! its a but rough but it does. might need new button and cap. but for now it runs. took it out for a drive and i have to say it seems a hell of a lot more responsive than i ever saw. maybe the "issue" has been there since i got the car and i didnt know any better. my 1.3 has POWER now...
Edited by faygoninja, Mar 27 2015, 05:11 PM.
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Spellsing
Elite Member
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faygoninja
Mar 25 2015, 10:54 PM
Posted Image

ok so here is my problem, is this part of the distributor? what do i need to replace? it looks like a winding for the pick up...i think
I refer you to my earlier post where I said:

"... It could be the same problem I'm experiencing right now where the pickup coil inside the distributor unraveled and wrapped around the rotor shaft.

There are just so many things that could cause this problem aside from the ignition coil bad."

What causes this is still a mystery to me, I'm working the problem as we speak.

The way it's seems to be a "rash" of it happening this week makes me honestly think we are dealing with a side effect of the solar flares we are experiencing.

I know, crazy...

but...
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Hanuman
"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"

Spellsing
Mar 27 2015, 06:02 PM
faygoninja
Mar 25 2015, 10:54 PM
Posted Image

ok so here is my problem, is this part of the distributor? what do i need to replace? it looks like a winding for the pick up...i think
I refer you to my earlier post where I said:

"... It could be the same problem I'm experiencing right now where the pickup coil inside the distributor unraveled and wrapped around the rotor shaft.

There are just so many things that could cause this problem aside from the ignition coil bad."

What causes this is still a mystery to me, I'm working the problem as we speak.

The way it's seems to be a "rash" of it happening this week makes me honestly think we are dealing with a side effect of the solar flares we are experiencing.

I know, crazy...

but...
i think your first one died a natural death.
and when you whacked your secont distributor with a mallot to break it free from the engine, you changed the clearance of the pick up coil in your secont distributor....cuasing its imeadiate death.

the ignitor has nothing to do with the pick up coil/cam position sensor.......two completely different circuits.
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faygoninja


mine is still starting hard, cap and rotor replace. im going to try the plugs and if i have to the cam sensor.
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faygoninja


the p0340 is the crank sensor? that is the one down by the oil pan? i thought it was the "camshaft sensor"... but o'riely's says it doesnt have one.....
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Metromightymouse
Member Avatar
Powdercoat Wizard

That is probably because the guys at O'Reilly's have a part called a "pick up coil" and no part called "cam position sensor".
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faygoninja


already replaced that. ill try re-adjusting it and see if that does anything. crank sensor then? it is throwing the code sometimes while trying to start it. maybe the p/u coil also fried the crank in some way. i keep throwing money at it but it wont run right. lol that is a joke guys.
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Hanuman
"The Almighty Grounds Cleaner"

easiest way to check for a crank sensor problem......disconnect it.
if the sensor is the problem, the engine will start right up but with the cel on.
.........it has been my experience that the ecm did not control idle speed.......this is not listed in the FSM.
.................you may need to give it a small amount of throttleto start and keep the idle speed up for about 1 minute.

.................................................................................

here is some information for everyone to learn from:


let me explain a few things about the cam and crank sensors.
first, i do not know how the multipoint fuel injected turbo 3 cylinder computer thinks.....
the following will only apply to 98+ 1.3 engines or 89-2001 3 cylinders and 89-97 1.3 engines depending on howi label them.

the cam sensor/pick-up coil..........3 cylinders.
all engines and all years have a cam position sensor...also called "pick up coil" on some years.
the cam sensor is the only sensor that the engine cannot run with out.......................
if the computer does not see the a\c signal from the cam sensor it cannot provide ignition timing and with out the ignition timing reference signal, it will not call for fuel "spark before fuel"

on 98+ 4 cylinders.
ignition timing is not based on the cam sensor.
cam timing is used to determine when the #1 cylinder is TDC of the compression stroke.
if the relation ship between the cam sensor and crank sensor is to far off the computer will shut down the ignition and fuel systems.
i dont know if the computer can operate with out the cam signal.

CRANK sensor.
96+ 3 cylinder and 96-97 4 cylinder.
this sensor has only one purpose: it sends a a\c reference signal to the computer so it can determine crank rpm for miss-fire detection.
the computer does not monitor engine rpm from this sensor.
this sensor does not have any effect on ignition timing.
the computer doesnt care what rpm the crank is verses the cam....it only watches for sudden changes in rpm from a miss-fire.
the computer cannot tell the difference between the cam sensors a\c signal and the crank sensors a\c signal.......if you splice the cam wires into the crank sensors harness (feeding the cam sensor signal to the computer as a crank signal as well as sending the cam signal like normal) the computer will operate normaly with no CEL.

98+ 4 cylinder cranksensor.

the computer does monitor rpm from this sensor.
the computer references the crank signal for ignition timing.....after the cam sensor is used to find TDC of the #1 compression stroke.
uses the sensor for miss fire detection.


so why wont the 3 cylinder run with a cork gasket?

on 3 cylinders the computer looks for a consistant signal between the cam and crank sensors before allowing ignition timing. both must be signaling consistantly.
as the starter motor begins cranking the engine, the crank sensor signals intermitently at first untill cranking rpm increases....then the signal becomes consistant. the ignition timing doesnt start untill the signals are both consistant.....the fuel injector doesnt spray untill ignition timing is established. "spark before fuel"

MWEBB has a scope picture showing the two signals starting out intermittent, then consistant. after that the graph shows the injector and spark plug pulses beginning.

if there is no signal from the crank sensor.....then there is no inconsistant pulses between the two.......the computer has no reason to hold ignition and fuel....so the engine starts. however, the CEL is illuminated since there is no missfire detection. i dont know if the computer goes rich for safety, however with my experience the computer did not control idle speed.
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faygoninja


alright, that seems odd. i did disconnect it on two tries to start the car and it didnt change anything. so my problem must be somewhere else.
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nwgeo


Side question on for this thread..... Is the pick up coil unraveling and destroying itself a weak point on the 96+ Geos?

Do we know.... two here on this thread makes me suspicious.
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