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Electrical Draw
Topic Started: Apr 7 2015, 08:47 PM (1,666 Views)
myredvert
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myredvert

If you don't find something in the FSM, assume you didn't find it, but don't assume it's not in there. ;)

Section 8A-146 Electrical Diagnosis Automatic Seatbelts

Section 10-11 Seat Belts
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solerpower
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myredvert
Apr 11 2015, 07:22 PM
If you don't find something in the FSM, assume you didn't find it, but don't assume it's not in there. ;)

Section 8A-146 Electrical Diagnosis Automatic Seatbelts

Section 10-11 Seat Belts
Before you assume that I didn't look. I have read the entire fsm that I have access to. The fsm I am viewing is an 89 pdf file, and it does not have either one of those sections. I wasn't assuming it wasn't in the fsm, but only not in the fsm I have access to. This is not my first go around with electrical problems, or trouble shooting. I am quite confident in my ability to find things in a book. I'm not making assumptions, and therefore I ask that you don't make assumptions.
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myredvert
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myredvert

My mistake. When you said " Again, I did not see anything in the fsm about it" I thought you meant you didn't see anything in the FSM, and wasn't aware that by "FSM" you meant a "partial version."

While you are waiting for your 91 FSM, you can use the 1994 FSM in the forum library - it will be well over 90% applicable for your 91, and when indicated, use the standard emissions information.
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solerpower
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myredvert
Apr 11 2015, 08:54 PM
My mistake. When you said " Again, I did not see anything in the fsm about it" I thought you meant you didn't see anything in the FSM, and wasn't aware that by "FSM" you meant a "partial version."

While you are waiting for your 91 FSM, you can use the 1994 FSM in the forum library - it will be well over 90% applicable for your 91, and when indicated, use the standard emissions information.
Thanks.
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Stubby79
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Off topic, but I never got why US cars came with power seatbelts...it's a fricken GEO for gawd sakes...everything else is manual. Don't even come with a wiper delay. Why make the seatbelts electric?!
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solerpower
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Stubby79
Apr 13 2015, 09:17 AM
Off topic, but I never got why US cars came with power seatbelts...it's a fricken GEO for gawd sakes...everything else is manual. Don't even come with a wiper delay. Why make the seatbelts electric?!
Best guess in the early 90's the U.S. was obsessed with doors opening by themselves (Lamborghini's), anything automatic. The system sole purpose if working right is that you don't have to take off the seatbelt when you open the door. My Ford Probe like other early 90's car had the automatic removal motors. It is not comforting to know if the power is cut to the door the belt lock doesn't work.
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sixtharmy


Passive passenger restraints were Federally mandated on early 90's cars. When you open the metro doors the belts extend enough that you can get in and out. You're never supposed to unhook the belt, though everyone did. Air bags made these systems obsolete in the mid 90's.
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Woodie
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sixtharmy has it, mostly.

The Feds wanted air bags, the car manufacturers didn't. The Feds mandated "passive restraints" to force the issue. On cheaper cars, where the cost of airbags would be a larger percentage of the cost of the car, the manufacturers came up with all of these Rube Goldberg mechanisms to automatically put the seatbelt on you. Our system was to mount the seatbelt on the door and leave the belt latched in the center of the car. Door would (sort of) take the belt out of the way so you could slip under it, then the closing of the door would wrap it around you properly. It was awkward as hell, and the seatbelts worked normally if you just unlatched them, so that's what everybody did. Eventually, as airbag manufacture took off exponentially, the prices came down and it became reasonable to put them on cheap cars.

The goofy electric control is because the seatbelt locks when pulled out fast. That's easy to do if you open the door quickly, so an electric lock release was built into the locking mechanism. It electrically defeats the lock if the door is not completely closed and latched. That's also the reason for the automatic locking doors, to keep the doors from releasing in an accident, thereby releasing the seatbelt. If power is cut to the door, the seatbelt will lock normally. The switch fails and the car thinks the door is open all the time, that's when the belts don't work, and your battery goes dead overnight.
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solerpower
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Interesting. I was slightly wrong about cutting power defeating the belt. I didn't check, but the sensor grounds the control module? Which then sends out power to the retractor. Therefore if the power was cut and the door latch switch was in the closed "off" position the belt would still lock.

I removed the door latch last night. I thought I had the same one on hand, but the other one I have doesn't have the second sensor on it, and the material for the bar is slightly different. What year did the second sensor go on the door latch? Thanks
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Stubby79
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Woodie
Apr 14 2015, 05:59 AM
sixtharmy has it, mostly.

The Feds wanted air bags, the car manufacturers didn't. The Feds mandated "passive restraints" to force the issue. On cheaper cars, where the cost of airbags would be a larger percentage of the cost of the car, the manufacturers came up with all of these Rube Goldberg mechanisms to automatically put the seatbelt on you. Our system was to mount the seatbelt on the door and leave the belt latched in the center of the car. Door would (sort of) take the belt out of the way so you could slip under it, then the closing of the door would wrap it around you properly. It was awkward as hell, and the seatbelts worked normally if you just unlatched them, so that's what everybody did. Eventually, as airbag manufacture took off exponentially, the prices came down and it became reasonable to put them on cheap cars.

The goofy electric control is because the seatbelt locks when pulled out fast. That's easy to do if you open the door quickly, so an electric lock release was built into the locking mechanism. It electrically defeats the lock if the door is not completely closed and latched. That's also the reason for the automatic locking doors, to keep the doors from releasing in an accident, thereby releasing the seatbelt. If power is cut to the door, the seatbelt will lock normally. The switch fails and the car thinks the door is open all the time, that's when the belts don't work, and your battery goes dead overnight.
So glad they didn't do that here in Canada. I'd probably avoid said vintage of vehicles like the plague, and that happens to be when they made most of the cars I like. The only vehicles around here with power seat belts are high end luxury types. Which isn't what I'm in to. :D

Manual belts (And everything else) FTW!
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solerpower
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Alright, I took a look at both door latch sensors. Both sensors work and were not intermittent. I took the door latch end plate off to get a better look. I also had a spare latch on hand from a 91 metro. Same exact configuration except it doesn't have the door lock sensor and the door handle bar is a little cheaper metal and slightly different bends in it. With the end plate off at first sight there didn't appear to be anything different between the two. It was only that I had the spare one on hand that I realized the latch hook itself has been slightly bent upward. This is what I believe is causing the problem. When it is slight bent upward it will clear the hold down grommets. When it is not it will not clear. Going over the top of grommets could certainly cause a stuck latch and therefore an "On" or open sensor. The sensor has a ground and two positions open and closed. Sending a signal back to the control module in both positions. I am going down to rap up the install. I'll grab some pictures and verify the problem and outcome.
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hobsickle
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HS Science teacher
[ *  *  * ]
I had a problem with an unexplained draw in an '89 4Dr. We finally found it when we noticed a fire behind the left fender. One of the always hot wires had shorted somehow to another wire in the harness somewhere under the battery tray.
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solerpower
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Okay, parasitic draw fixed. Definitely a combination of the hook on the door latch being bent and the striker not being centered. The most likely cause of it all, faulty door hinge bushings. The sagging door caused the striker to be off center. This leads to impact damage of the latch hook. The off centered striker will also result in the dowel for the sensor not being pushed all the way in which may be sufficient to not close the closed door position circuit.
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Woodie
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solerpower
Apr 14 2015, 10:38 PM
Okay, parasitic draw fixed. Definitely a combination of the hook on the door latch being bent and the striker not being centered. The most likely cause of it all, faulty door hinge bushings. The sagging door caused the striker to be off center. This leads to impact damage of the latch hook. The off centered striker will also result in the dowel for the sensor not being pushed all the way in which may be sufficient to not close the closed door position circuit.
This is what fascinates me about fixing stuff. The crazy train of consequence that leads from one thing to another. A door hinge that never got oiled led to a repeated dead battery. :lol


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