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| Lazy starter or other electrical component? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 4 2015, 11:34 AM (587 Views) | |
| WE3ZS | Jun 4 2015, 11:34 AM Post #1 |
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Hello Metro fans! Over the past 3 days my '04 3/5 metro has developed an intermittent starter condition. I hypermile and do a lot of coasting and sometimes leave it shutdown while waiting at known long red lights, it failed to engage the starter at one of these lights (using the key) Tuesday morning, so I was That Guy pushing his car through a busy city intersection. After that incident it was back to normal key/starter operation for the rest of the trip and ride home that evening. Wednesday morning it would not activate the starter again, so I push started it and kept it running at lights, again no starter action at the end of my workday, push started again. During that commute home I tried the key during several coast cycles and it spun the starter every time, including after I parked it at home. This morning it failed to spin the starter again and it didn't work while coasting this time out. Just to be clear I always bump start it at the end of coast cycles (except for at 3 long red lights on my route), the above mentioned starter tries while coasting were just to test/check for proper operation following failed key starts. When I cycle the key I get the typical radio cutout for a few seconds and the dash lights dim ever so slightly but get absolutely no sound or action from the starter (that I can hear from the driver's seat). My current work schedule leaves me virtually no time to tinker with it (12 hours/day 1 day in 14 off) so I'm hoping that the collective wisdom here can help me skip a few steps in the troubleshooting of the problem so I can attack the root problem in the small amount tinker time left in my daily schedule (and cut down on the push starts!). I have read of a few instances of failed key cylinders, My car is at 131k miles and all other key functions are normal and it does still activate the starter intermittently, would a key cylinder failure typically be a total failure or would it be common for it to be hit-or-miss like am seeing? I am not familiar at all with the Metro's starter or solenoid setup, I've had it for almost a year and other than oil changes, EGR cleanout and a rear wheel bearing (all done with info from this site!) it hasn't required much attention. Do my symptoms sound like a possible solenoid failure? Starter motor? I welcome any and all input on this problem and am more than happy to expand on or supply any additional info to help with the troubleshooting. Thank you in advance for any help on this as my time is currently very limited and push starting is getting old fast! |
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| Silver2K | Jun 4 2015, 12:02 PM Post #2 |
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You are describing a common problem with Metros. MMM has thread for it. http://geometroforum.com/topic/5753206/1/ The cheapest fix is to add a starter relay for about $10. I have one. Works great. |
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| myredvert | Jun 4 2015, 12:31 PM Post #3 |
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myredvert
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While "wisdom" and "skipping steps in the troubleshooting..." don't normally go together well, if you're willing to throw a few parts at it, you pretty much already identified the main possibilities. Solenoid, starter, ignition switch, and wiring, although if the solenoid isn't even clicking you can probably hold off on suspecting the starter itself. The problem could also be battery, ground, and/or alternator related as well. Sometimes attacking the "usual suspects" takes care of the problem with a minimum amount of unnecessary parts thrown at it, so you could always start with the likeliest/cheapest/simplest guess and work your way up, or don't skip steps in the troubleshooting and actually determine what the problem is before spending money and time on it. A few minutes of following a diagnostic procedure with a voltmeter is usually much more efficient time and $$ wise than just replacing and hoping. And there is a 1994 Factory Service manual in the forum library. ![]() Geo Metro Forum → The Garage → Factory Repair Manuals/Wiring Diagrams → 1994 library You may be interested in section 8A-30, Electrical Diagnosis - Starter and Charging. There are troubleshooting hints and a Symptoms table included in that section. If your plans include continuing to regularly increase your number of starter cycles over the minimum required, a new starter and solenoid and possibly even new circuit wiring might not be a bad idea anyway. In the mean time, you should try to keep your electrical load to a minimum while cycling the starter to maximize your odds of a successful start, i.e., don't leave the radio or any other unnecessary electrical component. Unless it's just your ignition switch that's bad...
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| WE3ZS | Jun 4 2015, 12:41 PM Post #4 |
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Thank you, I will give that thread a read! |
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| WE3ZS | Jun 4 2015, 12:53 PM Post #5 |
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I actually laughed out loud at your "wisdom & skipping steps" comment.......Oh so very true! Thank you for the link to the FSM and urging me to take the proper steps in diagnosing the problem, I will try to work through it in a logical sequence of steps (made even better now with the FSM link!). I was posting my symptoms and thoughts to see if I was overlooking something common or known to present the conditions described. All of your points made are good and valid, Thank you. My typical commute and usage doesn't really use the starter much more than "normal" as I only have those 3 long lights and I am lucky enough that I don't always catch the reds at them, all other restarting is via rolling bump starts. Battery seems to be pretty strong, head lights stay nice and bright while coasting and when it does crank it is nice and strong. I will try to go over the main wiring tonight to check for loose connections or any other obvious visually noticeable faults. After that I'll begin to peck away at it following the FSM guide. |
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| myredvert | Jun 4 2015, 02:32 PM Post #6 |
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myredvert
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The one component in a 20 something Metro that doesn't seem like a sound platform for surviving additional multiple cycles is the ignition switch, considering it is both an older component that is prone to wear leading to failure as well as being costly to repair properly. Keep in mind that even though you may only cycle the ignition switch to the START position a time or two or three extra on a trip, you are still cycling the switch back to the ACC position then back to ON every time you do engine off coasting, increasing wear to both the switch and the key (unless you already have a kill switch installed. My comment about keeping electrical loads to an absolute necessary minimum is partly related to avoiding a solenoid problem if the wiring circuit is questionable. No matter how good your battery is, the higher the available voltage for a restart is the more your solenoid, starter, and engine will thank you. And, since you are obviously into putting effort into saving every last drop of fuel possible, consider that running the battery down any amount more than necessary in between starts mean the charging system load will be higher after the restart, increasing fuel consumption. A serious hypermiler would never run the radio when they can power a cube speaker with their phone... ![]() And since we're on reducing electrical loads to save fuel, I hope you have or are considering converting as many lights as practical to LEDs. Good luck finding the specific cause of your issue, let us know what you find out about it.
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| WE3ZS | Jun 4 2015, 02:54 PM Post #7 |
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Hopefully I'll find something simple, would be nice as I really don't have much time available right now to dig deeply. I may have to drive my V-10 Excursion (12 MPG) for the commute if I can't get the mighty Metro squared away quickly. I will report back my findings here. I do have and use a kill switch, I kill the power to the injector so typically the key sees "normal" usage. My phone is dumber than me, am that's not easy! No tunes or cube speakers here. No LEDs in the Metro yet, have done some at home, in the EX and camper, eventually will get around to doing some in the Metro. I'm doing pretty good so far with the MPGs, my commute is about 50/50% city (Philly) and highway (I-95/I-476 get very congested and backed up during evening commute) and with a near full grille block and kill switch my best tank has been 57.6 MPG and so far the current near empty tank is looking even better.
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| Metromightymouse | Jun 4 2015, 07:32 PM Post #8 |
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Powdercoat Wizard
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The next time it won't start (and you have time) do the test in my thread that you were referred to and you will know which side the problem is on, starter or wiring/ switch(s). The FSM will have a logical test procedure to nail down which component is at fault. Even if it's just a few times a day, the extra cycles will have an effect and the switch and the starter, etc. You are gaining MPG at the cost of additional part wear. |
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| sphenicie | Jun 5 2015, 08:20 AM Post #9 |
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the first thing to check, quick and easy, is the single wire to the solenoid. I have had this condition, couple/few times. pull into drive thru, long line, shut er down, and nothing! sux to be that guy. loose or dirty connection will cause just what you have described. |
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| WE3ZS | Jun 5 2015, 02:52 PM Post #10 |
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Hey guys, just checking for today. Last night I had to get some shopping done and fuel up the push-to-start Mighty Metro, so not much more time than to verify that it does have the slightest bit of powdery corrosion on the Positive battery terminal and that both battery connections are tight as is the large cable connection at the starter. I am a Moderator on another automotive forum so I know how much more valuable this thread will be with updates on my progress and eventual repairs. So not much so far, I will be cleaning up the terminals and then diving into the testing/checking steps as time permits. The best news from last night's running around was the fill up, 602.7 miles (adjusted up 7% from 563.3 odometer miles due to larger than stock tires) on 9.922 gallons of gas, finally hit my goal of 60 MPG with this 60.74 tank! New goal is 65!
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| WE3ZS | Jun 9 2015, 09:36 AM Post #11 |
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Update: Troubleshooting showed that the starter solenoid is dead, no action or noise at all with 12 volts jumped directly to it's trigger post. I stopped in at the two nearest parts stores, both showed a replacement solenoid at $107 and a rebuilt starter (with new solenoid included) for $67.99, makes perfect sense! After some reading here I ordered the gear reduction starter for an '86 Chevy Sprint Auto for the same $67.99, should be here Wednesday. My starter (solenoid) is now completely dead and has been for the past 3 days, still driving it though with 3 push starts a day.
Edited by WE3ZS, Jun 22 2015, 11:24 PM.
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| WE3ZS | Jun 22 2015, 11:27 PM Post #12 |
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The new starter went in and is working fine, then it sat for 10 days as we went on vacation. Just wanted to update this thread with the final outcome and say thank you to all who stopped in to help me out!
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| Stubby79 | Jul 11 2015, 03:21 PM Post #13 |
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If you're concerned about wearing out your ignition switch, you could wire in a separate starter button. Just make sure it's hooked up to a switched + source, so it doesn't work without the key. |
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for the commute if I can't get the mighty Metro squared away quickly. I will report back my findings here. 
After some reading here I ordered the gear reduction starter for an '86 Chevy Sprint Auto for the same $67.99, should be here Wednesday. My starter (solenoid) is now completely dead and has been for the past 3 days, still driving it though with 3 push starts a day.
2:15 PM Jul 11