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Something is broken; No Check Engine Light; before doing some wiring I was lazy and removed the +BAT
Topic Started: Jun 21 2015, 10:44 AM (1,196 Views)
myredvert
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myredvert

Quote:
 
I'm leaning towards I'm just flooding it with too much throttle.
It doesn't work that way. The Engine Control Module (ECM) can't be flooding if you are leaning. :lol

That, and the ECM does not flood the engine if everything is operating normally. The ECM determines how much fuel is inject (its not a carburetor by the way) based on throttle position, manifold absolute pressure, engine coolant temperature, intake temperature, O2 sensor inputs, and long term fuel trim tables, just to name a few.When operating in closed loop, the ECM will control fuel in response to O2 sensor inputs to maintain a stoichiometric fuel"air ratio, and when in an enrichment mode it adds a small amount of extra fuel. But never enough to make the engine run bad.

No G10 normal operating and performing G10 exhibits the symptoms you described, meaning there is no "flooding by adding to much throttle" to the point of causing any performance degradation. if everything else is normal, the ECM will always add the correct amount of fuel for the conditions.

You can read for the rest of your life in the FSM about "how the ECM works" and never figure out what is causing your driveability issues, for that you have to either perform the proper diagnostic procedures, or just guess and start throwing parts at it, and sooner or later you could/might get lucky.

However, the diagnostic procedure will figure out "what's wrong" for you as long as you use the correct procedure and perform the applicable tests properly in order for it to lead you there.

Several people have tried to direct you to the applicable diagnostic procedures already. Those procedures, along with an entire 1994 Factory Service Manual is available for reference in the forum library. The 94 manual is 99+% applicable to your car, with the possible exception of the correct TPS check, but a scanned copy of the 1992 factory TPS check is posted in a thread entitled "TPS Report" by Bad Bent.

Honestly, it should have taken less time to determine what is wrong had you used the FSM procedures properly than you have already spent typing posts. Seriously. How much extra time and effort you expend not following the FSM procedures is entirely up to you.

Good luck! :cheers

Edited by myredvert, Jun 22 2015, 12:54 PM.
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Metromightymouse
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Powdercoat Wizard

And the cost of an FSM isn't likely to go down much. If you get a good deal on one, you should be able to sell it for the same price or including it with the car when you sell it can be a good deal closer.
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Woodie
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Removing the positive battery cable has the same effect as removing the negative. ECMs almost never go bad, if it lights up when you turn the key on then goes out when the engine starts, then your ECM is good.

Your symptoms sound as if it's not getting enough fuel. Bad pump, clogged filter, bad fuel pressure regulator, or clogged injector. Injector is my first guess, take a look at the quality of the fuel cone it's spraying into the throttle body.
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HOLLiiWOOD
New Member
[ *  * ]
you have all been very help ful; and thank you for being so patient.

I just haven't gotten to diagnosing with the FSM. There is ALOT of tuning up needed, and I always need the car for work tomorrow (i have had bad expirences with blindly "tuning up").

following the FSM will be a first, I am just stupidly worrying about losing driveability.

issue seems to have gone away, but gas mileage seems to have taken a hit, maybe, the next tank full will confirm if that is true.

was probably the filter sock in the gas tank, As I said I have gone hard on the fuel system cleaners.

the fuel filter is brand new; I plan on running 25 tanks through it and replacing.

I have an excessive system for cleaning out complete fuel system; and I'm hoping it will klean all the sludge out of the tank


______________________________________________________________________


I knoe removing the negative battery cable and pressing the brake will clear a MIL.

does that not reset anything that the PCM has learned about fuel mixtures???

I knoe it slowly learns and adapts as sensors age
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myredvert
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myredvert

Quote:
 
following the FSM will be a first, I am just stupidly worrying about losing driveability.
You have a much greater chance for losing driveability when you don't use the FSM. ;) If during a procedure you get to a step where something needs replaced, you may just have to plan your down time accordingly.

Randomly choosing parts to replace depending on your time availability may hit on the solution, but in the process may also waste a lot of time and effort, albeit in smaller chunks of time at once. But there is the matter money being unnecessarily spent if something truly didn't need replacing.
Quote:
 
I knoe removing the negative battery cable and pressing the brake will clear a MIL.

does that not reset anything that the PCM has learned about fuel mixtures???

I knoe it slowly learns and adapts as sensors age
Where in the H-E- double toothpicks did you get this "pressing on the brake" thing from? :hmm
FSM
 
To clear the diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) from the memory of the engine control module (ECM), either to determine if the malfunction will occur again or because repair has been completed, the ECM power feed must be disconnected for at least 30 seconds. To remove power from the ECM, remove the TAIL Fuse located in the junction block.
No pressing the brake or chewing gum and rubbing your tummy while patting your dog, or anything. :D
Simply remove power from the ECM for at least 30 seconds.

Removing the TAIL fuse will accomplish this, or remove a battery cable, if you don't mind clearing things in the radio memory like time and station presets.

And you are absolutely correct about clearing the memory having an effect on fuel scheduling. When you clear the ECM, the long term fuel trim data is cleared. This is the data it calculates and records by monitoring the short term fuel trim driven by the O2 sensor. The ECM overwrites long term data as necessary in an attempt to bring the short term values as close to zero as possible. it will always do this, as this is how it compensates for changes in engine health over time and sensor performance.

Once you clear the ECM memory, it will need to populate new data and will do so when it sees the data points/conditions as applicable to the data format of its' table. It's a common recommendation to clear the long term fuel trim table after performing emission or performance oriented changes to the vehicle (like a new sensor) in order to prevent the ECM from having to transition fuel scheduling from "old data" that has not been overwritten to "new data" that has as you drive through one data point to another but not long enough for it to overwrite the old values.
Edited by myredvert, Jun 25 2015, 06:35 PM.
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t3ragtop
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Turbo3 and Twincam Tweaker

don't ever pull the connectors from the ecu without first disconnecting the battery.

that pressing on the brake pedal is a procedure for new cars that require some different voodoo for resetting various system processes. these cars are basically "stupid" by comparison.

one of the biggest problems that cause a "hit" to fuel economy is the o2 sensor. they can be weak without coding out as bad. it's a wear item that should be changed at an interval like spark plugs and vacuum hoses. ;)
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myredvert
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myredvert

Good advice about regularly changing the O2 sensor even though it hasn't coded. :thumb

I had no doubt it probably came from a more sophisticated system that had an additional step/fail safe built in to the reset procedure, I was just wondering why it was being talked about for the Metro and if maybe there was something obscure I hasn't heard about or read in the FSM or any other Suzuki Diagnostic references. That's all.

Well, that and why the OP continued to mention it after being told at least once it had nothing to do with the Metro... ;)

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HOLLiiWOOD
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[ *  * ]
: /

so factory service manual is en-route.

according to this forum my problem was 1) driving with the ECU unhooked (tail fuse was blown) and 2) the ECU trim memory being erased.

nothing in the emissions it near %100, so my car will need to re-learn about all the crappy, jujjed up sensors.

which I can prove, because the problem is getting better.



STOKED on the FSM though, tablets and laptops are **** in the sun.
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myredvert
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myredvert

Quote:
 
according to this forum my problem was 1) driving with the ECU unhooked (tail fuse was blown) and 2) the ECU trim memory being erased.
Now hang on there just a minute big guy. Exactly what forum are you referring to that led you to conclude this? :hmm The reason I ask is it's extremely unlikely that THIS forum would lead you to believe your blown TAIL fuse was causing your driveability problem. Let me explain...

When the ECM has no power it can't tell the fuel pump to pump, the ignition to ignite, or the fuel injector to inject. So I'm not sure how you tied this one together with the TAIL fuse or the forum. I think you're going to have to stop being so modest and keep the credit for this conclusion all to yourself, especially since "no ECM, no runny" is a pretty basic concept understood by most people here who are even the slightest bit familiar with the Metro systems. Or ECMs in general for that matter.

As far as the long term fuel trim table being cleared, maybe... :thumb

But you also shouldn't assume you know "nothing is 100%" or "all of your sensors are crappy" without testing them iaw the FSM procedures where applicable. Large long term fuel trim values could be caused by a crappy O2 (or other) sensor, or you could have crappy grounds that need cleaned/tightened, or you could have crappy connections, and last but certainly not least in the list of things that can affect the long term fuel trim, you could just have a crappy engine. Or any crappy combination of the above. All of those things might cause a performance issue if the split between the recorded and "zeroed' values are too large. But honestly, I doubt it would cause a problem to the extent you first described.

Putting my best unsupported theory in engineering terms, it's likely something went temporarily wonky in your ECM due to some nasty little renegade fruitrons that were spasti-magically spawned when you accidentally juiced it. Or, in layman's terms, your ECM saw what it interpreted readings from certain sensors during the voltage spike to be malfunctions, then defaulted into its' fail safe mode as designed and subsequently imposed programmed limits on the engine's performance capabilities using it's backup scheduling program. And it got happy when it was subsequently reset. :D

My point, if you believe you have "crappy sensors" and start arbitrarily replacing them, you could waste a lot of money, time, and effort "fixing' things that aren't actually broken. Don't blindly throw sensors at it, get Direct TV your FSM, then start learning how to use it properly and check your individual systems and/or components one by one to see what's working normally and what's not. You won't know until you know.

My suggestion, after you receive your FSM, and assuming you have properly checked the OBD system (or will again) and have no set or stored codes at that time, go to the Symptoms Section (6E2-B), begin with the Important Preliminary Checks, then proceed to whatever part is applicable to whatever driveability issues/symptoms you do have - IF you have any.
Good luck :cheers
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HOLLiiWOOD
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[ *  * ]
i'm not spending any money on this baby; I can turn the crank pulley by hand. I suspect exhaust valves, cause they burn out.

o2 sensor is old

but i have cleaned all but 3 grounds ( wiper motor, right foot well, and behind dash/glovebox.)

if the drivers side control arm wasn't jimmii-rigged I would fix her.

alas, I will be the one to drive her to her grave.




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