Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Posted ImageWelcome to the all new Geo Metro Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are features you can't use and images you can't see. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Join our community!




Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Under body brace vs sway bar for the money; Let the debate begin (if there is one)
Topic Started: Jun 30 2015, 02:52 AM (5,420 Views)
Coche Blanco
Member Avatar
Troll Certified

I wouldn't pay 100 dollars + for a sway bar set. I would wait until you can get set cheap, and in the mean time run a front brace.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Old Man


My theory is based a little on education and a lot on experimentation.

Seems to me like while the underbody brace stiffens the frame it also transfers some motion to the suspension. The anti-sway bar reduces the amount of unwanted motion in the front end suspension.

Personally, I would never run an underbody brace without a sway bar, but I would run a sway bar without an underbody brace.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
snowfish
Member Avatar
Basic GearHead

Quote:
 
the underbody brace stiffens the frame it also transfers some motion to the suspension

Motion is only Supposed to be in the suspension. Not the frame.

Every Metro/Swift/Sprint, needs an under brace. Holds the steering geometry in the right place. Every Metro, that I've owned has had an under brace install. And every Metro has had to have a technical adjustment to make it fit. The frame horns spread and take a set. With an under brace, alignment holds true, and the suspension moves more accurately. Add sway bars and it feels even better. New struts and your better than factory. :thumb

Like I said before, sway bars And the under brace. If one at a time, under brace, then sway bars, then struts, then urethane bushings all around, then either cut or lowering springs, then solid rear toe links. ^o) Now we have a track car with nice street manners. :cheers
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Otey13
Member Avatar
Geo Nerd

I'll be going with the sway bars front and rear first. New struts and shocks, and lowering springs. And if I like it, I'll stay with that. If I feel I need more stiffness. I'll be getting the upper braces for the front and back from MAC. I think it's all about what you prefer. When I come home from work I take back roads with alot of curves to stay off of the interstate and I'm in a hurry to get home from a long day. So I'm busting around at 30 to 50 mph. Sometimes I feel like I'm going to roll it. I'm hoping this will help with the body roll.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
rmcelwee
Member Avatar


When I used to race the lightweight I pulled my rear sway bar out half way through the season just to see what happened and my times improved. Different car with a different design but I thought I would throw that in there to totally confuse the conversation...


Posted Image

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bannedfonz
Member Avatar


Thanks for all the info guys. I've been leaning towards the sway bars first due to the fact that I don't drive it real hard. Just trying to keep the roll down a bit.

I had originally planned on doing struts and cut springs when I bought the car but found they had been replaced once already (about 30,000 miles ago) and didn't need to be yet. Instead, I spent some money on 13" rims and tires.

There are a few little things that I plan on doing first but this is on my short list of things to do. Just have to convince the wife that it needs to be done :hmm

I do know what you mean Perfesser, that's kinda the way it is around here... I don't work at that place but I'm not qualified at the places I've worked either.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
perfesser
Member Avatar
Elite Member - Former Metro owner

Bannedfonz, when I lived there Dubois County prided itself on having the highest per capita rate of alcoholic consumption in the nation. They still setting new records? The Scout troop in Huntingburg made its yearly budget just by collecting the empties at the town drinking festival every summer and recycling them.

Are you a local or a transplant? We were transplants, so if it hadn't been for our local church family we'd have been awful lonely there!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
perfesser
Member Avatar
Elite Member - Former Metro owner

Coche Blanco
Jun 30 2015, 11:59 AM
I wouldn't pay 100 dollars + for a sway bar set. I would wait until you can get set cheap, and in the mean time run a front brace.
CB, I wouldn't either. I got the front sway bar at a pnp for $5- and the front/rear set for less than that. Of course, any paint that they may have once had was a distant memory!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
perfesser
Member Avatar
Elite Member - Former Metro owner

snowfish
Jun 30 2015, 05:06 PM
Quote:
 
the underbody brace stiffens the frame it also transfers some motion to the suspension

Motion is only Supposed to be in the suspension. Not the frame.
It may seem like the brace transfers motion into the suspension because after you install it the car drives differently. What you are feeling is the cornering, etc. forces being confined to the suspension where it belongs. With no brace, it's quite possible to feel the movement of the chassis as it flexes under these forces. With the brace, the chassis doesn't flex any more.

If you actually did have motion in the frame, you would end up with metal fatigue and one day the front horns would just fall off. Oh, wait! That's an automatic feature anyway in some parts of the country!! :O :O :O
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dattman
Express Shopper

Now that everyone has debated it I'll explain why I suggested the rear sway bar and front brace, Perfesser and snowfish are right, the lower control arm(LCA) mounting points move a mile when cornering and particularly under braking, how can you control the suspension if it's not fixed in one spot? on my race car the LCA would spread so much under hard braking it would pull the left cv out of the gearbox, when we built the brace we made it slightly shorter and was going to use a block and tackle to pull the LCA together, ha, it was so weak we could push the LCA mounts together by hand to get the brace on.
Here's my 6 point brace
Posted Image

As for the top strut brace think about this, the top turret sits very close to the firewall which is a pretty large brace, the top of the shock absorber is mounted in 2" of rubber, whats going to flex more, steel turret or rubber mount??? until you run solid strut tops you will never notice any benefit from running a top brace.

I'm presuming that all metro's have front swaybars from factory? the purpose of the sway bar is to transfer weight from the loaded side to the unloaded side, it effectively increases the spring rate of the loaded shock but only during cornering, this affects the total amount of body roll, this will sound backwards but decreasing the roll reduces grip relative to the other end, ie, a larger swaybar on the front increases understeer because it has less grip making your car understeer even more, understeer is inherently a safety characteristic all manufacturers dial in, this however is very boring, the easiest way to remove some of this is to run a rear swaybar or run a much bigger sway bar, increasing the rear spring rates also does a similar thing, you are decreasing rear grip relative to the front.

Of course the other way to remove understeer is to add grip to the front end instead of taking it away from the back, easiest way to add front grip is to run a front brace so the suspension can it's thing ;)

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Metromightymouse
Member Avatar
Powdercoat Wizard

Geo Metros built before the 95 model year had NO sway bars. Hence owners here are very unhappy with body roll. As far as the upper front strut brace, my 95 with no structural rust or damage, newer struts and all original front suspension components otherwise did change in noticeable ways after the addition. When taking freeway on/off ramps at speed, no longer requires corrections mid corner and I have less suspension noises than previously. Just my observations.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Woodie
Member Avatar


Dattman
Jul 1 2015, 04:55 AM
As for the top strut brace think about this, the top turret sits very close to the firewall which is a pretty large brace, the top of the shock absorber is mounted in 2" of rubber, whats going to flex more, steel turret or rubber mount??? until you run solid strut tops you will never notice any benefit from running a top brace.
Exactly what I was thinking, the top is a bank vault compared to the bottom.
Quote:
 
I'm presuming that all metro's have front swaybars from factory? the purpose of the sway bar is to transfer weight from the loaded side to the unloaded side, it effectively increases the spring rate of the loaded shock but only during cornering, this affects the total amount of body roll, this will sound backwards but decreasing the roll reduces grip relative to the other end, ie, a larger swaybar on the front increases understeer because it has less grip making your car understeer even more, understeer is inherently a safety characteristic all manufacturers dial in, this however is very boring, the easiest way to remove some of this is to run a rear swaybar or run a much bigger sway bar, increasing the rear spring rates also does a similar thing, you are decreasing rear grip relative to the front.
Ahh, now it makes sense. You weren't aware of the weird fact that GEN2 Metros didn't get any sway bar at all. I was puzzled by your suggestion to put on a rear bar only as that would make a very tail happy car for the average driver. I thought "maybe for the track, but not good advice to give someone who needs to ask", but I think you really know your shit and didn't want to start an argument, so I just let it pass.

Nice brace you made there :wub:


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dattman
Express Shopper

Really??? in that case get a small front swaybar, a big rear swaybar together and then an underbody brace, you'll find a small rear sway bay without any front bar will actually be fine, I know of lots of racing guys who don't run a front swaybar and it doesn't turn their car into a tail happy monster at all, I'm just not a fan of running a front bar without a rear one.


MM nice to hear your first hand observation, mid corner correction, yes sounds like an improvement, not quite sure about a reduction in suspension noises from a top brace lol, have you tried a bottom brace?

Woodie just for you mate...
http://s64.photobucket.com/user/Downhillderek/media/Brace002.jpg.html
Edited by Dattman, Jul 1 2015, 07:04 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bannedfonz
Member Avatar


Very interesting points Dattman, and a very nice setup. I can order the front under brace from MAC and try to find sway bars later (since my usual pnp doesn't have much in the way of metro parts) and not going the ebay route for sway bars... I may be a little worried about solid tops on a metro though, thought it might put too much stress on the mounts, not sure though. I don't know a whole lot about suspension stuff. Just need a little more in the corners is all...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dattman
Express Shopper

Don't go solid strut tops on a road car, not comfortable at all, just illustrating that there are lots of squishy parts in a suspension setup that are flexing and moving more than parts of the chassis.
Get the front bottom brace and keep your eyes peeled for sway bars that come up.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Suspension/Steering/Alignment · Next Topic »
Add Reply