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Some oil consumption actually beneficial to engines?
Topic Started: Jul 13 2015, 09:35 AM (770 Views)
cwatkin


I have recently seen discussions about some higher performance engines such as those made by Audi and VW using oil and customers being unhappy. I remember when dealing with a Cadillac Northstar that used oil reading that some oil use was actually a good thing as it kept the upper cylinders lubricated. The article I read made mention of several high performance cars like the Honda S-2000 being made with aggressive crosshatching in the cylinders to retain more oil for upper-cylinder lubrication at high RPM. They mentioned that engines using a slight amount of oil tend to go longer before needing a rebuild than those that use no oil.

I think what happens is that someone replaces their Accord or Taurus with a European make and doesn't like the fact that they paid more for a car that uses oil, not knowing why it was designed that way.

I was curious if anyone else had an opinion on this. While we are all aware of the G10 burning valves and such with excessive oil use, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with an oil burner that burned the same amount of oil for a long time and provided many years/miles of reliable service.

Conor
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Freeman
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The Family Man

Subaru is a very common one. I believe Audi specs something like 3 quarts between oil changes on some models. I read this in the news recently and a lot of people were unhappy about it. Some cars are just designed to burn oil and a lot of it from what I was reading. I'm personally not a major fan of it for your average consumer. Burning oil could leave the average driver low on oil and that would definitely NOT increase the time between rebuilds. Burning oil is very common on the factory turbo European cars like Audi, Subaru, and Volkswagen. The amount of oil varies and it is quite the eye catcher when the dealer says, "That's normal."
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cwatkin


The only car I ever messed with that was designed this way was the Cadillac Northstar 4.6L. It was a friend and they had been running whatever oil was cheapest for way too long. I would say it was burning 2-3 quarts per 1000 miles when I started messing with it. I ran some ACEA synthetic oil in it and ran it like it was stolen and pretty soon the consumption was down to 1 quart per 1000 miles or so which I figure is pretty normal. The rings were obviously getting sticky and the bad oil along with gentle daily driving caused that. The new oil and/or spirited driving broke then loose.

Like everyone else, I thought something was wrong with the engine before I read up on how it was made, then realized it was no biggie. I figure running the ACEA synthetic is a good way to keep the emissions system from getting fouled as I know that is one of the features of this oil.

Conor
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Silver2K


Increased oil consumption will degrade the cat over time, which is why the newer oil standards reduce the amount of ZDDP in an attempt to extend cat life to 100K, which in turn will reduce the life of some engine components.
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Stubby79
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I used to work for a dealer, who shall remain unnamed, but according to their literature, oil consumption was only considered excessive if it used more than a liter/quart every thousand miles.

I can agree with the idea of gentle driving gumming up rings...my mazda tends to slowly lose pep until I get pissed off enough to try and blow the engine up. It tends to purr like a kitten after, and behave itself for a few days. Sometimes they just need a good spanking?
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cwatkin


I have also noticed some cars seem to gain power after a good hard run. I don't know if it is freeing sticky rings, removing deposits from the combustion chamber, or both.

I understand that one of the issues that causes valve burning on the G10 is that deposits tend to build up on the valves during normal driving. Then when you finally decide to push the engine, the increased heat causes the deposits to burn off and in doing so, take a "bite" out of the valves as they burn hot. I live in a hilly area so pretty much push mine hard each day I drive it climbing the hills and it has never had any issues. In addition, mine doesn't use oil so I am sure that helps with deposit formation.

Conor
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Freeman
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The Family Man

I get on the gas fairly regularly in most of my vehicles. The only one I don't like to do it in is the Metro because I'm worried the little rubber band auto transmission is going to blow loose. :D

I use Brad Penn oil in my Civic because it needs some extra additives. It doesn't have a cat so it doesn't really matter what is coming out of the tail pipe. But for my Fit, I do plan on using some decent synthetic to attempt to extend the life of the cat. I think the cat on it is going bad already and will need replacing.
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cwatkin


I don't know much about the autos in the Metro besides the fact I don't like them. My dislike relates to performance and economy issues and not durability. I had always heard they were pretty tough and held up well as long as you kept good fluid in them but have no personal experience with them myself.

Conor
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Freeman
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The Family Man

It may very well hold up just fine, but I don't have much confidence in mine personally. It clunks and wizzes under normal driving conditions. It also is nearing 150k on the original trans and I have no idea when the fluid was replaced.
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ZXTjato
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bass heads

Stubby79
Jul 13 2015, 10:41 AM
I used to work for a dealer, who shall remain unnamed, but according to their literature, oil consumption was only considered excessive if it used more than a liter/quart every thousand miles.

I can agree with the idea of gentle driving gumming up rings...my mazda tends to slowly lose pep until I get pissed off enough to try and blow the engine up. It tends to purr like a kitten after, and behave itself for a few days. Sometimes they just need a good spanking?
oh i know right? my geo gets spanked daily and runs fantastic :hmm
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myredvert
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myredvert

Quote:
 
They mentioned that engines using a slight amount of oil tend to go longer before needing a rebuild than those that use no oil.

I think what happens is that someone replaces their Accord or Taurus with a European make and doesn't like the fact that they paid more for a car that uses oil, not knowing why it was designed that way.

I was curious if anyone else had an opinion on this. While we are all aware of the G10 burning valves and such with excessive oil use, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with an oil burner that burned the same amount of oil for a long time and provided many years/miles of reliable service.
You mentioned the key to this above.... "(in engines) that were designed this way... Trying to over simplify and compare this concept to a non-engineered solution for very specific applications seems to begging for for very flawed conclusions.

Of course there are many folks who have maintained their G10s well and they have gotten some extraordinary mileage out of them and most likely they have done as much as anyone could ever do to slow the inevitable wear produced by metals parts rubbing against each other at some 30-50 times per second or more. However, their exceptional engine life still doesn't change the fact that whatever measurable oil consumption they experience is still nothing more than a symptom as opposed to a solution.

It's just a random thought, but if this concept could be so simply applied to the engines like ours, then wouldn't it seem reasonable that most every rebuild where things like factory specs for things like cylinder bores and rings and professional machining procedures aren't given even a passing thought would/could/should last notably longer than a spec rebuilt engine where every tolerance and surface was carefully calculated and professionally machined to the tight end of factory spec - because it will have higher oil consumption? And keep in mind that even a factory spec engine consumes oil in the process of lubrication. Just because that quantity may be too small to measure over the life of a normal oil change interval doesn't mean it's not enough to do the job well.

I can see it now. New project threads where people intentionally build engines to the (largest) clearance limits (or worse) and even cut wingding grooves in their oil rings in order to increase engine life. :lol If I could only figure out why I can't seem to get my laser pointer to perform cylinder wall laser honing and restructuring. :hmm

http://www.gehring.de/en/technology/laser-honing/
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myredvert
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myredvert

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oh i know right? my geo gets spanked daily and runs fantastic :hmm
In the vein of "there's no such thing as a free lunch..."

While daily spankings seem to do a very good job of reducing the possibility of performance loss and/or valve damage due to excessive buildup of deposits/carbon, it doesn't happen for free. It's paid for with increased wear. I heard a rumor once that two metal surfaces rubbing together at 70 or 80 or more times per second may wear faster than those only repeating the same process at half the frequency or less, with less pressure applied to them in the process... :dunno

You can use more power from an engine, but you can't have more power longer.

Well, maybe unless you are regularly dropping little blue pills into the fuel tank... Just sayin' :D
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Freeman
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The Family Man

This whole topic is reminding me of 'proper' break in procedures for performance cars. Everyone has an opinion, none have proof, and there is a hand full of anecdotes for every side of the die. I don't think there is a 100% certain way to get maximum performance and longevity out of an engine. I'm sure every method has a trade off.
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ZXTjato
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bass heads

myredvert
Jul 13 2015, 12:04 PM
Quote:
 
oh i know right? my geo gets spanked daily and runs fantastic :hmm
In the vein of "there's no such thing as a free lunch..."

While daily spankings seem to do a very good job of reducing the possibility of performance loss and/or valve damage due to excessive buildup of deposits/carbon, it doesn't happen for free. It's paid for with increased wear. I heard a rumor once that two metal surfaces rubbing together at 70 or 80 or more times per second may wear faster than those only repeating the same process at half the frequency or less, with less pressure applied to them in the process... :dunno

You can use more power from an engine, but you can't have more power longer.

Well, maybe unless you are regularly dropping little blue pills into the fuel tank... Just sayin' :D
This is really true, im looking at rebuilding another engine because ive been spanking for almost 200K and the engine is starting to show its age, i am now having to check the oil occasionally because it is starting to use a tiny bit and i dont like that. i guarantee that the extreme type of use my engine receives daily will wear it out faster than normal. Even tho i change my oil bi weekly use synthetic oil make sure it has new filters and keep it clean it IS wearing out inside, 3 years life is what it has on it, i estimate i can run a metro engine 4.5 no more than 5 years before its worn out. I am sure the ratio of my gearing weight AC on all the time and extreme heat help speed the wear out of my car, plus the stop and go traffic long idle times high rpm driving WOT etc. etc when this engine is worn out i will be sure to document its internal condition thoroughly because ive use the same filters same oil brand same every thing over its quick life. I am probably the only person on this site who can actually test engine life to the fullest with out spending 20 years to do so. most people change owners or switch brands of oil whatever, me on the other hand i have a really stable least variable usage scenario.... :news :hmm i think :lol
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Hotrodray1
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Over Educated parts guy

When I was a tech at the local ford dealer ford sent out a tsb that the 4.6 liters could use up to 1 quart between oil changes and it was completely normal.
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