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Running rough, where to start
Topic Started: Nov 5 2016, 05:53 PM (2,724 Views)
nourishablegecko
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So, I just bought my first 1997 Geo Metro 1.0 and am looking for where to begin on repairs. It is currently running kind of rough and shakes quite a bit at idle, with compression numbers of (wet/dry): 150/160, 60/60, 175/205. I believe there is an exhaust leak because there is a small amount of burning oil coming from the gasket which looks like it was very poorly done and obviously cylinder 2 has weak compression. I just changed the oil and filter today and it runs about the same. Should I start on a full rebuild? A new head? New valves? I just need a rough idea of where I should go and what I should do, because I want this car to run good again but am not able to spend lots of money at the moment on the rebuild. Thanks to everyone who can help!
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Woodie
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nourishablegecko
Nov 5 2016, 05:53 PM
compression numbers of (wet/dry): 150/160, 60/60, 175/205
New (rebuilt) head, piston rings, hone the cylinders.
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sphenicie


nourishablegecko
Nov 5 2016, 05:53 PM
So, I just bought my first 1997 Geo Metro 1.0 and am looking for where to begin on repairs.
what are your intentions for the car? keep for long term or just 'a while'. investment or expense?

what is the condition of the rest of the important systems of the car? what other costs will you have in the next year or two? will you need a new clutch? what about brakes and bearings? exhaust? tires?

what is your budget? complete rebuild v one new valve; $2000 v $50.

what are your mechanical abilities? complete rebuild.......what about pulling and reinstalling? new valve......you do it (correctly) $50, pay a shop several hundred.

odds are you have a burnt valve in the #2 cylinder, as well as significant bore/ring wear. You are rapidly approaching the FSM low tolerance for compression, #1 cyl already there.

a big part of the equation is how you will be using the car. if you only drive 5 miles to work/school and a break down isn't a big issue, cheap fix, ie just a quick hand job and rings and a valve might get you by. if you intend to log a lot of miles, maybe face an out of town breakdown with significant cost and hassle, you should probably invest in a good total rebuild.
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nettled
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Hi,

Spenicie makes a lot of good points but don't be scared

I think the 2 biggest factors to consider here are
1. How quickly do you need this car on the road?
2. Are you comfortable taking an engine apart/are you willing to learn?

While it's true that taking an engine out and having machine work done is usually bad news for any car owner at least you're talking about a Metro. One of the easiest cars to work on with light weight parts (easy for 1 person to muscle around) and from my experience (Mostly Chevettes, MR2s, Hondas, Fords and now several Metros) the parts for Metros are also much much cheaper than most other cars.

I rebuilt a 95 with a complete rebuild kit. New pistons, rings, bearings, oil pump, head, brakes, clutch etc...a little pricey

I'm working on my 94 now and took a different approach. I dropped the head off at my favorite machine shop, Cylinder Head Depot. they charged $150 to deck the head, re-cut all the valves and seats, knurl the valve guides and install new seals for me.

I left the engine block in the car, pulled the pistons and honed the cylinder walls in place. Cost about $18 for the hone and $20something for a full set of rings. So easy I plan on honing/re-ringing any car I have the head off of from now on. Including all the gaskets I needed and a new clutch (found out the clutch pilot bearing was bad after building the engine and getting it running again) I spent less than $200 plus $150 at the machine shop.

If you're not in a rush to put the car back on the road your Metro could be an excellent learning experience for you and you could save a ton of money doing your own work.

Also keep in mind most machine shops will charge you different rates depending on how taken apart/stripped down the parts are that you're bringing them. I get a much cheaper price by bringing them an empty engine block than something that still has the crank and pistons in it.

Also most machine shops will inspect your head/block and tell you what size valves/pistons you need if you prefer to order your own parts. This will make your rebuild take longer as your engine will be sitting around at the machine shop while you mail order parts but another good way to save money if you have the time.

sorry to keep rambling here but...

DIY full engine rebuild with machine shop doing the head and block cost me apx $1000

DIY patch rebuild (just head, rings and clutch in this case) apx $300-$350

Also, if you have the time you can save a lot of money by figuring out what work you're going to do before you order parts. It's usually cheaper to order gasket sets than individual gaskets. Like it's better to get the head set then a head gasket and intake/exhaust separate. But You can also order ring kits that come with a head gasket set...or engine rebuild kits that come with gasket sets...it's easy to accidentally wind up with too many gasket sets, no harm other than a waste of $.

If you can't find a good machine shop in your area I always liked Eastwood's Auto Machine Shop 49 Maple St, Somersville, CT 06072, (860) 749-2903 but I haven't been back to CT in 5 years so...

lastly....this forum is an excellent place for advice and technical documents from not just Metro owners but Metro enthusiast...I was told it's a disease...it is :)
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Woodie
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If you don't know anything about working on cars, Rochester isn't very far from NE Ohio, the spiritual home of all things Metro. Johnny Mullet is well known for doing quick head and rings refreshing to Metro engines. He's a busy guy, don't know if he's up for another challenge right now, but it couldn't hurt to ask.
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nourishablegecko
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I would say I'm mechanically inclined enough to be able to do the work on this car myself. I need it on the road at least by thanksgiving to go home, and need it to get me back to school then back home in mid december for winter break. I am comfortable taking this engine out and working on it, so far it's a very simple engine from what I've seen and read and feel up to the job.

Today I sea foamed the car and changed the exhaust manifold gasket and it is running a lot smoother than it was before, with little engine shake and is much, much more responsive. Before it felt like the car was going to die just from simply pressing the throttle. With that said, it still feels a little rough and definitely needs the work.

So, can I replace the head (rebuild or buy a new head) and put off the bottom end until christmas at least? Or are my compression numbers bad enough that it needs to all be addressed right now? I don't mind pulling the head again in a months time if it means I can pull it now, do a quick head job and have it run well enough until I have the funds/time to do the bottom end as well. It is still burning oil coming from the manifold, I'm guessing, but am not sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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nettled
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If you're mechanically inclined enough to change the head and do all the timing stuff you might as well do something about the lower end.

There is always the logic when working on cars that you're already in there so you might as well take care of this part or that part...it never ends. Of course it would be better to have the block rebuilt with new bearings, seals pistons etc but if you don't have the time/money/inclination to take your project that far you might want to consider honing it and replacing just the rings even if you don't want to pull the crank or replace any bearings and seals. A set of rings for the 3 cylinder is about $24 from rock auto, the hone is $18

I used this hone and was pretty happy with it http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/products/?product=102&jsn=475

If you have the head off all you have to do is drop the oil pain, unbolt the bearing caps on each piston (2 bolts each) and tap the pistons up and out the top of the engine. Honing is pretty easy and there are plenty of videos on youtube to show you that.

If you're having head work done because of low compression it makes sense to at least attend to your rings just to make sure you're doing something about your compression problem from the top and bottom.

Of course this is all assuming your cylinder walls are not heavily scratched or worn to the point it needs to be bored.

It's a pickle no matter how you look at it but a set of rings, the hone and an oil pan gasket puts you at about $45-50 and task you could easily do in an afternoon if you already have the head off and are waiting for a machine shop to give it back to you.

Just remember your bearings, seals and oil pump will still be old. this doesn't mean your engine will go another 200k it should just help assure your compression goes back up and you stop burning oil
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nourishablegecko
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Alright, so I guess I might as well just address the bottom end now rather than later. Should I take my head to a machine shop and have it worked on, or can I just replace the valves and seals and clean it up as best as I can? And can I use that type of hone, or is a berry-type hone that everyone raves about worth the investment? Should I buy new pistons or are the ones inside most likely salvageable? And (last question I promise) how do I find a machine shop or a place to take it to if I do get the head resurfaced or cleaned? This is all kind of new to me. Thank you so much nettled, you're being a big help
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ptcapboy


since your number on cylinder #2 didn't go up when you added oil to the cylinder this indicates that the problem is the valves and not the rings-therefore you should be fine just replacing the head for now-if it were me I wouldn't do the bottom end at Christmas I would wait for an indication that the rings need attention like the bottom numbers rising with your next low compression test which could be 2 years later-
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ptcapboy


oops I see that the decision has already been made while I was composing my post-
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nourishablegecko
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Looking at the numbers, would cylinder 3 really be the only one that needs new rings? If I bought a new manufactured head, new seals, new timing kit and new water pump and cleaned the oil pump, would it make it at least until Christmas or perhaps even summer? I really don't mind going back in and servicing it again and doing the bottom end eventually, if it means I'll have a reliable commuter car for the time being.

If I bought a head like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191588886492 would I be able to just buy new seals, new head bolts, pump, timing kit, and be okay? I'd rather not address the bottom end now if I really don't need to, I guess
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ptcapboy


I would think so-you do run the risk of when you change your head the sudden rise in compression will cause the rings to start leaking more but on my 95 3 cylinder that didn't happen until about the 3rd time I swapped out the head-
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nourishablegecko
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How often does that happen, that it blows the rings when you replace the head?
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nourishablegecko
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Do you think I could rebuild the head and get similar compression numbers to that of a new, rebuilt head bought off eBay?
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nettled
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Hello again :)

of course you can skip the bottom end for the time being and just do the head. It's completely up to you. It's really a matter of whether or not you want to throw another $50 and a day of labor at it now or wait and do a better more complete lower end rebuild later.

The head listed on ebay says it's re manufactured and has a warranty. you could contact them to be sure but it's extremely unlikely anyone would re manufacture a head without putting new seals in it. It also says they want the core returned (your old head) so you might want to call them and see what they're going to charge you up front for the core and who is paying shipping to get it to them.

Or you could check google, or online yellow pages for machine shops in your area and make a few phone calls. Get some quotes. Most machine shops will inspect your head and give you a better idea of what it will cost to rebuild. Personally I prefer to keep the original head and block with the car whenever possible but it's not that important. If time is more important it may be easier to just order a re manufactured head.

No matter how you handle this treat it as a chance to get to know your Metro better. Don't get frustrated, just ask the fine enthusiasts here for help if you get stuck
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