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Replaced Heater Core, Still No Heat! Bad Thermostat?
Topic Started: Dec 12 2016, 01:05 PM (1,926 Views)
VladTheImpala
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I should have probably tested the thermostat before deciding to replace the heater core, especially considering the fact that the temperature readings have always been cold as long as we have owned this car. We've owned it for just over a year and the temp reading is always all the way on the bottom, the needle is actually below the C. It rarely goes up to the middle, only on hot summer days when you're idling a lot, but even most of the summer the engine always reads completely cold. Now that I think of it, this should have been the first clue as to why we are not getting heat.

But whatever, it can't hurt to have a brand new heater core, right?

The heater core we ordered turned out to be the wrong kind, although it was mostly the same, it had some metal edges that prevented it from fitting into the heater box properly. I had to trim some plastic off the heater box and also shave down the metal edges of the heater core to get it to fit. Even then, the fit wasn't perfect and it left a bit of a bulge by where the heater core pipes stick out. It also cracked the plastic in one part so there is some air leakage from the heater box into the cabin, but it's only a small very amount and if it's warm air, then who cares. I'd rather have a slight air leak in a heater box that works than no air leak in a heater box that doesn't produce heat.

Another annoying thing is I think I screwed up some of the blend doors. They are not opening and closing as smoothly as before. But again, I'd rather have a working heater with badly working controls, or even controls that are stuck on windshield and feet, than a non-working heater where all the blend doors work perfect.

We picked the coldest day of the year to do this job. We're not sure if we'll still have this car next year, so we figured the time to do the work is now. If we keep putting it off, winter will pass and by next winter we might not have this car anymore. We already purchased the heater core, so not doing the work now would make that purchase a total waste of money. But, after doing all that work and beating up my hands, we went for a drive and... still no heat. :banghead

We used jstone68's method of replacing the heater core, and pretty much everything went well. Although I have to say that if it took this guy only 1 hour with a broken collar bone, he is some kind of superhero. It took me and my girlfriend a good 4 hours to complete this job, although we did it on the coldest day of the year when it was -30 feels like -40 Celsius. Extreme, bitter cold. Even with two space heaters pointed right at us in our garage, it was so freezing that we couldn't move very fast or hold a wrench for more than a minute before needing to warm up our hands. If you've ever touched a piece of metal when it's -40 Celsius, it gets so cold that your body accidentally mistakes it for hot when you first touch it. The thing that slowed us down the most was removing the hoses from the old heater core inside the engine bay. They were completely fused to the pipes. Not having the special heater hose pliers made this procedure even more annoying, but after a half hour of trying to pull and twist, we decided to cut the old hoses off. There appeared to be enough hose left to reattach, and it did it indeed work. When we cut the hoses, it was no wonder why they couldn't be pulled off - the rubber was melted on and completely fused to the pipe.

My only complaint about jstone68's instructions was that he didn't mention how important it is to be careful not to damage any of the blend doors inside the heater box when first taking it apart to remove the old heater core. I had no idea what was inside that heater box, and I accidentally broke a piece off one of the hinges when pulling it apart. I reattached it with superglue and made sure it went into the right hole on the side of the heater box when I put it back together, but the movement of the blend doors is not as smooth now. It appears that they all still work but they are a bit stiff and not as smooth when shifting. Putting that blend box back together was also tough, although probably would have been much easier if the part had been a perfect fit.

Anyway, at this point, we are thinking our thermostat is stuck open. The engine almost never gets up to operating temperature, and it gets warmer idling than it ever does while driving (the only time the thermostat ever went up to the middle was when it idles for a long time or when it is stuck in traffic), which would seem to imply that the thermostat is stuck open.

Going to get a quote on how much it would cost to replace the thermostat. It's an easy job, and after our recent bad experience with the mechanic, we were thinking that we will do a lot more jobs ourselves. However, I am way too lazy to order this part and wait for it to arrive, and worry if the part is exactly right or if it will properly fit. It's also a messy job that requires draining coolant and scaping off the old gasket, and we don't have the gasket scraping tool. For a pro, this should be an easy job that doesn't require more than a half hour labor, so it might be more convenient and just as cheap to get the mechanic to do it than to do it ourselves. We'll see what he says though.

Hoping to have heat soon!
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

The thermostat is stuck open and that is why the temp does not warm up to normal.
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myredvert
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myredvert

Have you measured the coolant temperature in the radiator with some type of thermometer (candy, laser pyrometer, etc) and the temperature of the thermostat housing to verify the temperature is low vs the indication being off?

With the radiator cap off and a small amount of coolant removed, observe the coolant in the radiator for immediate flow that would indicate an open thermostat.
Edited by myredvert, Dec 12 2016, 06:11 PM.
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monzanut
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Drip under Pressure

never know what you might find, my first metro never got warm, and when I pulled the housing off to check the thermostat it was like finding a four leaf clover...nothing there! Some PO had removed it and not put anything but a tube of silicone to seal it back in. :shake
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Car Nut
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You did a heater core, and feel that you can't/don't want to do a thermostat? I'd rather do 10 thermostats, than one heater core. Easy pezy.
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VladTheImpala
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Thanks Car Nut, that is encouraging. The reason I was discouraged about the thermostat job is because the most difficult part of replacing the heater core was trying to get the hoses off the heater core's pipes inside the engine bay. That whole experience made me weary of hose work. I'm also worried about getting the right parts. If I take it apart and then discover that the parts are not exactly correct, it would suck. Although if that happened, maybe I could somehow jam the thermostat closed and keep it that way until I buy the correct parts. In the winter there is no chance of it overheating, so it might be a good temporary solution. Another thing that concerns me is whether the gasket will be a perfect match. I really don't want to screw up the seal on the thermostat housing.

But here's the quote I got from the mechanic:

Posted Image

Isn't that crazy?

I decided that I should do the repair myself, but here's the concern that I have - I checked Amazon and I can buy a 45849 thermostat for 12 bucks. I'm a prime member so I get free two-day shipping. Sounds like a great plan, but Amazon's "make sure it fits" feature is telling me that the 45849 thermostat the mechanic identified as the needed part won't fit my 1991 Chevrolet Sprint. It says it fits a 1991 Geo Metro LSi, but when I select the 1991 Chevrolet Sprint, it says it won't fit.

Every time I have tried to do a repair myself or tried to buy the parts myself, I have had issues with the parts being correct. When we had wheel bearing issues, I did a bunch of research and purchased my own bearings, hoping to do the repair myself. Eventually I took it to a mechanic and tried to get him to use the supplied parts, and he agreed but then told me that the bearings I purchased were the wrong ones. Every website and parts locator that I tried told me I needed 909 bearings. The guy at NAPA also confirmed that we needed 909 bearings. Turned out that the correct bearings were 107DD.

Same problem with the heater core. Bought the heater core but then during the repair discovered that the part was slightly wrong, and I had to trim the plastic inside the heater box and shave down the metal edges on the heater core to make it fit.

I really don't want to buy the 45849 thermostat and the 25167 gasket and then discover in the middle of the repair that they aren't the correct parts. I'm willing to buy two thermostats and two gaskets just to avoid this problem. If I do that, can anyone suggest what other thermostat I should buy? If it's not the 45849, then what other thermostat might fit? (Looking for a 195 thermostat and not a 180)
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VladTheImpala
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Amazon is saying the same thing about thermostat 13849. Says it fits the 1991 Geo Metro, both LSi and XFi, but not 1991 Chevrolet Sprint. The 45849 thermostat also says it fits both the LSi and XFi 1991 Metro, but says no for Sprint.

Maybe either of these will fit? The Sprint is not as common as the Metro and I know that a lot of parts identification tools give you the wrong result for the Sprint. So maybe it really does fit even though it says it doesn't? :banghead
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Johnny Mullet
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Fear the Mullet

Get the thermostat through the local parts store.
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VladTheImpala
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Believe it or not, it's more expensive and harder to find locally
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Woodie
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VladTheImpala
Dec 14 2016, 11:37 AM
maybe I could somehow jam the thermostat closed and keep it that way until I buy the correct parts. In the winter there is no chance of it overheating
Wanna bet? If your thermostat were stuck shut your engine would overheat. Might take longer if it's crazy cold out, but it's still going to overheat.
Quote:
 
But here's the quote I got from the mechanic:

Posted Image

Isn't that crazy?

Not at all, that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

If I recall correctly there are two different styles of thermostat, one takes a rubber seal and one doesn't. Could be that yours has been replaced already and doesn't have the seal, allowing it to leak. There was also something about the thermostat seal for a Dodge Neon fitting. I'm hazy on this, but I read it all here on this forum. You might want to get the gasket, take it apart and remove the thermostat, figure out if it has failed, been installed with something missing, or is the wrong one. If you need a new one and they don't have it at your local parts store (seems unlikely to me) then you could put it back together without the thermostat and drive it until you get the exact correct part.





Edited by Woodie, Dec 15 2016, 06:51 AM.
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sphenicie


First, go check out the thread for thermostat ID, this will make it very clear which one you need.

That IS FUCKEN CRAZY.........NOTHING in that quote scares me more than $22 for a stat, They start at $2.09 at RA.

OH, hold the phone.....I lied, the thing that scares me the MOST is the $325.00/hour labor rate that crook is charging.

go back and ask that rip off king what he charges per hour. Then you can inform him that "the book time" for replacing a stat, and gasket is 0.4 hours.

When he questions the "book time" refer him to the '1992 Geo labor time guide', as published by Chevy/Geo, publication number ST-804-92-G4, on Dec, 15th, 1992.

In general, book time is more than generous, I can usually finish with time to spare. The bigger the job, the more 'extra' time is built in. If you are unfamiliar with the previously mentioned book, it is what GM will pay a shop for warranty work.

GM would NEVER, NEVER, EVER pay a shop rate of $325/hour.
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VladTheImpala
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It's the standard rate here in Canada. Big reason why so many people prefer to do their own work.

Not sure exactly how much time they allocated for that job. I think it's just a standard base charge for any job, even if it is only a half hour. They say it includes testing of the job afterward, including a road test "where applicable".

If you were having some issue but didn't know what exactly was wrong and needed a diagnostic, there is a standard rate of $168. Canada sucks.
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Woodie
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sphenicie
Dec 15 2016, 08:04 AM
Then you can inform him that "the book time" for replacing a stat, and gasket is 0.4 hours.
Maybe book time is usually right, but I'd venture to guess that no one has ever changed a thermostat on a 25 year old car in 24 minutes. Probably take 24 minutes to scrape the gasket surfaces clean. And what about that radiator hose that is already about to split as the car is driven into the shop?

If you're a business owner who has to do free warranty work are you going to put the kind of cheap chinese junk RockAuto sells on a car? I don't think so, a smart man is going to put on a NAPA or Beck-Arnley part and quote an hour's labor. Much greater chance of still being in business next month.

Also consider Canadian dollars, 160 = 120 US


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sphenicie


Woodie
Dec 20 2016, 06:11 AM


If you're a business owner who has to do free warranty work are you going to put the kind of


WOW MAN, I do not even know how to respond......warranty work is not done for free!

It is paid for by the MANUFACTURE! It is calculated by BOOK TIME x SHOP RATE + allowable extras (towing, for example). The manufacture does not "set" shop rate, but will only accept industry standards.






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sphenicie


Woodie
Dec 20 2016, 06:11 AM

are you going to put the kind of cheap chinese junk RockAuto sells on a car? I don't think so, a smart man is going to put on a NAPA or Beck-Arnley part and quote an hour's labor.




WOW MAN, WTF?

Obviously you have NO IDEA WHAT SO EVER of what you speak!

Have you ever been to the RA site? OBVIOUSLY NOT!

IF, IF you would have even been there one time, you would have seen that RA has numerous suppliers, INCLUDING NAPA and BECK-ARNLEY. When you order from RA, YOU and YOU ALONE choose the brand of the product that you buy.

IF you choose "cheap Chinese junk" from RA, it is YOUR CHOISE........DO NOT BLAME ROCK AUTO for your choice!

I just got 4 sets of NAPA plug wires and 3 sets of NAPA wipers..........FROM ROCK AUTO!

IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, SHUT YOUR MOUTH.
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