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1.0 won't start, flooded #1 cylinder; Once sounded like an old Volkswagen! lol
Topic Started: Dec 25 2016, 11:09 PM (1,255 Views)
suzukitom
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Tom

Quote:
 
And, do a compression test.


Have you done what Myredvert suggested yet?

Sounds like doing this now could help narrow things down a bit..
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Bannedfonz
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I have not done a test yet. I will try to do that this weekend and see what I come up with. It's funny that it ran fine when parked, then started up the next time and ran funny, then wouldn't start at all...
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Bannedfonz
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I have also noticed that my car had been running a little more rich lately. My exhaust tip is a little more black than usual. Along with less than average mpg... Wonder if there are a few other things going on here, maybe this not starting thing is a secondary issue....
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Bannedfonz
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Ok, is it odd to have some water in your PCV and the inside of your valve cover? I know it's probably condensation but it looks like a lot. While the car was sitting last week, it was cold and wet, that's when I started having issues with it not wanting to start. That's why I'm leaning toward an electrical issue (due to the dampness).

So, here we go... I took the breather cover off this morning, checking hoses and wires and such. When I removed the cover, I noticed the inside of the PCV hose looked a little milky. So I pulled the PCV valve off and noticed THIS Posted Image.
It's a little hard to make out in the pic, but there is a small pool of milky fluid at the bottom of the hole... Great... So, I pulled the valve cover to look over things, when I pulled the cover, it dripped a little water out of the cover and onto the plug wires and exhaust. Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
Not milky oil, straight water. The oil on the dipstick is fine, the oil on the cam looks fine (maybe a little dark) but nothing wrong with it. Posted Image. Also looks like I might need a new cam seal before long, it's a little damp around there...

Sorry for the big pictures, it was the best way to get the detail. Any ideas?
Edited by Bannedfonz, Dec 30 2016, 07:15 PM.
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myredvert
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myredvert

I would let go of the idea that an injector failure of any kind will send excess fuel to one cylinder only. Unless a runner is blocked, the intake manifold is designed to be an equal opportunity fuel supplier - what one gets they all get.
Quote:
 
...wondering why only cylinder #1 is flooded?
Because the #1 is the only cylinder not adequately burning the fuel due to inadequate compression, inadequate spark, or improper mixture due to valve issues (that can also cause a compression problem). Since you have the valve cover off, rotate the cam and see if you can verify all of your lifters are moving up and down smoothly. A stuck valve might be a slightly more probable explanation than some type of "sudden onset" compression issue that would prevent starting with no prior symptoms.
Quote:
 
I have also noticed that my car had been running a little more rich lately. My exhaust tip is a little more black than usual. Along with less than average mpg... Wonder if there are a few other things going on here, maybe this not starting thing is a secondary issue....
Except maybe for a starter failure, I would consider not starting to always be a secondary issue.

Excess carbon at the tailpipe is excess carbon at the tailpipe, i.e., while it is fairly direct evidence of what's coming out of the engine it is not a direct indication of what's going in. Don't assume the air:fuel ratio is rich - a normal air:fuel ratio going through one cylinder that is not burning it properly can also result in excess carbon at the tailpipe.

Have you checked your OBD system yet? In an OBD system (not OBD II) an O2 sensor DTC can be an indication that the sensor is maxing out trying to compensate for a bad cylinder.

I would also inspect the internal distributor contacts, and if they look good and you have an extra plug wire and plug, I would try replacing them (one at a time and trying each) to begin with.

FWiW, I always keep a functioning #1 plug wire (the longest) and a good plug in my toolbag as emergency spares. Came in handy a few weeks back when my engine started missing at idle and occasionally stumbling at higher power and it turned out the #1 wire was failing and visibly arcing to the head.
Quote:
 
Any ideas?
Check your OBD system for DTCs (codes) and check your compression.

If you have an extra plug and/or wire, try those one at a time on the #1.
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Bannedfonz
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myredvert
Dec 30 2016, 10:32 AM
Have you checked your OBD system yet?

I would also inspect the internal distributor contacts, and if they look good and you have an extra plug wire and plug, I would try replacing them (one at a time and trying each) to begin with.

Check your OBD system for DTCs (codes) and check your compression.

I did check my codes and only 12 showed up. I know that is the default code and no other codes were present when I checked them yesterday morning.

The distributor contacts look great. I have all replaced all 3 wires and checked them with 3 different plugs, all one at a time. All 3 were tested by plugging them in and laying them on the cross member/radiator support, cranking and looking for spark. I saw all 3 spark from the driver seat.

I still have to do a compression check.

I will also check the lifters and make sure one isn't stuck...

Thanks for the lengthy assistance. It really is appreciated.
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myredvert
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myredvert

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I did check my codes and only 12 showed up.
:thumb "No codes" is not a good result - having a DTC 12 is. It's an important distinction... thanks for clarifying.
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The distributor contacts look great. I have all replaced all 3 wires and checked them with 3 different plugs, all one at a time. All 3 were tested by plugging them in and laying them on the cross member/radiator support, cranking and looking for spark. I saw all 3 spark from the driver seat.
:thumb Thanks for being patient enough to clarify those questions.

I realize that this type of process can get frustrating, but its often dangerous to attempt to form diagnostic opinions from afar without clear confirmation of what has or hasnt been done, and if it was done correctly enough to provide relevant information.
Quote:
 
Thanks for the lengthy assistance. It really is appreciated.
:lol That ain't lengthy - it was barely adequate to attempt to clarify a few details and questions I had and possibly provide some objective direction to keep the process moving forward. :dunno

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Bannedfonz
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So, I pulled out the compression tester that my father in law gave me a little while back. I didn't realize that it is an old set that you have to hold to the plug hole and take the reading that way. It doesn't screw into the hole... I'm not sure if it was me or the gauge but I couldn't get a consistent reading with it. I'm off to get the proper set and will commence with the testing later this morning.

Quote:
 
:thumb Thanks for being patient enough to clarify those questions.

Quote:
 
I realize that this type of process can get frustrating, but its often dangerous to attempt to form diagnostic opinions from afar without clear confirmation of what has or hasn't been done, and if it was done correctly enough to provide relevant information.

I try my best to learn from previous mistakes. I know you have helped me on a few things before and figured out that being as detailed as possible (especially when explaining a process to someone that can't see it in person) can only be a benefit. It is frustrating, trying to narrow down something like this, but I'm sure it's equally as frustrating to try to help someone that doesn't provide the info needed to diagnose the problem... I often over explain things and that sometimes means using info that isn't relevant to the situation.

Thanks again for your help. I will post back later this morning once I have completed the compression test.
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sphenicie


myredvert
Dec 30 2016, 10:32 AM
I would let go of the idea that an injector failure of any kind will send excess fuel to one cylinder only. Unless a runner is blocked, the intake manifold is designed to be an equal opportunity fuel supplier - what one gets they all get.
Quote:
 
...wondering why only cylinder #1 is flooded?
Because the #1 is the only cylinder not adequately burning the fuel due to inadequate compression, inadequate spark, or improper mixture due to valve issues (that can also cause
Burnt valve/s #2 & #3?? excess carbon at tail, could indicate excess carbon in cyl. or at valve seats.

I would try to get accurate and repeatable numbers. Borrow comp gauge from AZ.
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sphenicie


sorry for the double post.....

don't like that moisture. there is no direct path for condensation. for condensation to occur in the v/c, while sitting, that moisture was there, then condensed. unless it sat with the oil fill cap off or some other open pathway.

distributor contact points have been gone for decades.......so I assume you are talking about the terminals in the cap??

the other side of compression is SUCTION. a cyl with poor comp will not draw well. comp occurs on the up stroke, draw occurs on the down stroke.


Edit; big pix are good for blind old farts! thanks.

edit 2x; how old are your plugs? PCV valve? wires, cap, rotor? you said you have spark, but how strong? to check, use NEW plug, how wide can you get the gap and still arc the gap?



Edited by sphenicie, Dec 31 2016, 09:12 AM.
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Bannedfonz
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sphenicie,

I know points aren't around anymore, I was referring to contact points where the rotor contacts the terminals on the inside of the cap.

Quote:
 
don't like that moisture. there is no direct path for condensation. for condensation to occur in the v/c, while sitting, that moisture was there, then condensed. unless it sat with the oil fill cap off or some other open pathway.

At this point, the car has been sitting and not ran for almost 2 weeks. I pulled it into the garage a few days ago and have a small heater in the garage. I'm not sure if the warmer air in the garage (it's about 55 - 60 in the garage now, still in the 40's when I brought the car in), combined with the car being cold when I pulled it in has any affect on the condensation in the cover? The cover has NEVER been off the car, until I took it off the other morning, the oil fill cap was on and tight.


Ok, compression check done... kind of... I have varying results with each cylinder. The first time I did the test (when I bought the car) everything was even and stable. This time I ran the dry test 3 times in a row per cylinder. Mainly because the tester I was using last night was giving me numbers all over the board and I was trying to get consistent numbers. Hope it's not the gauge...

So dry test:
#1 90, 60, 60 = TOAST! lol
#2 170, 175, 160 = GOOD!
#3 90, 125, 140 = I don't know what...

Wet test was a joke... My numbers (when I got them), were all over the place. I didn't even record them.

I used about 1/2 oz of oil. maybe that isn't enough to get pressure?

#3 results...


#1 and #2 were about the same.


I thought about starting a new thread to get more help on these results, but I will wait to see what happens from here.

Thanks for all the help...
Edited by Bannedfonz, Dec 31 2016, 12:40 PM.
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Bannedfonz
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SO after digging through the FSM and a few posts here. It looks like valves are some, if not most or all of the issue??? My concern is the wet test. I only used 1/2 oz of oil. I'm thinking I need more to test it so I will check again after lunch...
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Bannedfonz
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I also just noticed this
Posted Image

Posted Image

I noticed it was damp when I was working on it earlier in the week (I think you can see in a picture or two I posted earlier). I wiped it off and didn't pay any attention to it. There wasn't any oil on it until after I did the compression test earlier. It's the little things... lol
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ptcapboy


don't think you need to use too much oil for the wet test-I was using an eye dropper to add oil to the cylinders on a car that wouldn't start after a amataur ring job-when the car finally started the oil cloud was humungous-
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Bannedfonz
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Most of what I have read, people use around 2 cap fulls from a quart of oil. I figured that was probably around 1/2 oz to 1 oz of oil per cylinder...
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