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95 Geo Metro dies while driving
Topic Started: Sep 27 2017, 01:23 PM (3,432 Views)
MR1 Kingsbury
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Exp. builder/rebuilder

That's a strange electrical gremlin... After re reading most of this thread i'm beginning to suspect a bad evap solenoid or blocked/stuck valve in the evap passage... check all the vac lines from and to the evap box.. (large plastic coffee can sized box) There might be a failed check valve.

On my 1.3 there is a secondary evap actuator circuit right side of throttle body with more vac lines and an electrical connection. never had trouble with it, but that surging with no load really could be an internal vac leak sucking vacuum on the fuel tank, and also causing no start...

the rad fan running on is strange... That's wholly related only to temp sensor in the water outlet by the thermostat. check those wires and connection.
Edited by MR1 Kingsbury, Oct 30 2017, 03:55 PM.
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freegeo
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The fan can come on and stay on if the pcm / ecm goes into fail safe mode. Can say I have never seen that with out the engine started. I would have to check the FSM in that one.

Edited by freegeo, Oct 30 2017, 04:40 PM.
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geogonfa
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Just my .02...sounds like you have a wiring problem in the engine/ECM wiring harness...
The ECM is getting mixed up signals from either a bad grounding or a possible open in the ECM circuit... :type
Clues...
#1. Engine cranks but will not start...
#2. Cooling fan comes on immediately when the key gives power to the ECM...
#3. System will clear after a disconnection to power...
#4. ECM gives a high idle signal to the ISC...
#5. ECM confuses the Map sensor signal...
#6. ECM shuts off fuel and spark when it gets warm...

Possible checks...
Bad connection at the wiring harness or harness connectors where they go through the bulkhead/firewall near the right strut tower...
Swap out the ISCA relay and see if it clears up

using ohms setting on a DVOM(Digital Volt Ohm Meter)
At the ECM check the BLK/GRN wire to ground
The BLK/BLU wire to ground
The BLK/RED wire to ground

NOTE: if you have continuity, wiggle the wires to see if the continuity disrupts...

Then at the ECM using the DVOM on the 20 volt setting and the key on, engine off...check to see if you have Battery Voltage...
At the WHT/BLU wires (1 at pin 1 and 1 at pin 15) to power.
At the #1 pin at the ISCA Relay in the Relay box (Left front of engine compartment near the battery).
At the #3 pin at the Main Relay in the Relay box (Left front of engine compartment near the battery).

NOTE: if you have voltage, wiggle the wires to see if the power disrupts...

keep us posted

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clc
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Hi Geogonfa.
I did the swap ICSA and AC2 (same relay) and all was the same, no change.
At the ECM there are so many wires that at my age it was hard to get in there.
The best I could do was to check voltage at the main relay and ISCA. I don't know which is pin #1 or #3, so I will indicate the votage at pin holes 30, 87,85 and 86.
ISCA relay:
30-- 11.2V
87-- .58V
86--12.2V
85-- 0

Main relay
30-- 12.24V
87-- 1.39V
86-- 12.2V
85-- 0

I also disconnected the wires to the temperature sensor? by the thermostat and got around 5.0V and there was continuity at the sensor. With this harness disconnected the fan stayed "on".
Hopefully this will help.
Thanks,
CLC
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geogonfa
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The problem is most likely at the ECM and/or the wiring harness going thru the bulkhead/firewall near the right strut tower...
that is why I posted the info...
this is the best way to see if it's the wires or the ECM failing...You don't want to install an ECM unless you know there isn't a short because it will just damage another ECM...
To get the the ECM wires and connectors easier:
Open the glove box,
Empty the contents,
Push the sides of the inner glove box in to release the tabs,
Swing out and lower the glove box all the way to the floor.
Remove the 2 screws holding the glove box to the lower dash, green arrows,
Look for the 3 10mm bolts holding the ECM in and remove them (2 on the bottom and 1 on top), purple arrows,

Posted Image

Pull the ECM straight down,
Now you have easy access to the wires...

Note: there should be no voltage to the #87 relay terminals with the relays removed.




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clc
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Thanks, geogonfa.
I will tackle it when I get back some energy. This approach seems a lot easier.
I really appreciate it.
CLC
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clc
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Geogonfa, here is a summary of the issues stated here.
Originally it was idle surging. One day just driving down the road the engine quit. An hour later it started again. It did this again. I cleaned the EGR, replaced the PCV, fuel injector and all the small vacuum hoses. I cleaned the coolant passages at the intake. Adjusted the TPS with a .14" gage to .99V. Idle at 600 RPM's. Then the issue with the fan turning on with the ignition key to the "on" position and cranking but not starting. Disconnected and reconnected battery fan would not go on and engine would start, but still at 600 RPM idle.
CLC
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freegeo
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I would double check the tps setting. Did you follow the procedure in the FSM?
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clc
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I'll double check the TPS.
I've tried to get a free copy of the FSM unsuccessfully.
Is there access to one here in this forum?
Thank,
CLC
Edited by clc, Oct 31 2017, 02:18 PM.
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geo4thewin
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I had a similar no start condition a couple of months ago, it ended up being an intermittent bad pickup in the distributor. I changed the distributor and have had no issues since then.

Not saying this is 100% your issue, but if you have a spare distributor that you could swap out it might be worth a try.
Edited by geo4thewin, Oct 31 2017, 02:32 PM.
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freegeo
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The 94 FSM is here in the forum.
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freegeo
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If you would want a PDF copy of the 94 fsm , pm me your e mail address and I can send it too you.
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clc
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freegeo, I've read the section on adjusting the TPS in the FSM and the TPS was adjusted to .99V.
I still have the issue with the low idle and the fan turning on even when the engine is cold with just turning the ignition key to the "on" position.
I disconnected the ECT sensor and the fan thermostat switch and the fan still running.
CLC
Edited by clc, Nov 2 2017, 01:23 PM.
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freegeo
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The ecm controls the radiator fan. There is no fan switch on a 95.

No codes set after a no start.
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clc
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I just checked the codes:
14-coolant temperature sensor
23-intake air sensor
46-idle speed control motor
I noticed that at idle position the piston? of the ISC is pushed inward. Is this normal? Is there supposed to be a gap?
Thanks,
CLC
Edited by clc, Nov 2 2017, 03:50 PM.
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